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CLDR Ticket #10813(accepted data)

Opened 5 months ago

Last modified 3 months ago

Date format order for en-PK

Reported by: mark Owned by: chiara
Component: datetime Data Locale:
Phase: dsub Review:
Weeks: Data Xpath:


It appears that we might want to change the standard en-PK date pattern to the mixed order <M d y>, instead of the current little-endian order <d M y>.

We have gotten reports that the most common format has mixed order <M d y>, eg

"December 11, 2017"

"President Mamnoon Hussain was born on December 23, 1940..."

"NOV 22, 2017"

"July 03 - 09, 2017"

Wikipedia says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Pakistan
"Pakistan follows the DD-MM-YY format as the predominant short form of the numeric date in its calendar date usage. Almost all government documents need to be filled up in the DD-MM-YYYY format. An example of employing usage of DD-MM-YYYY form is the Pakistani passport application form, the National Identity Card or the Pakistan Origin Card.[1] However, the MM-DD-YY format is not altogether absent; many media publications and prominent newspapers feature dates in MM-DD-YY format."

However, it may be that only the pure numeric form (type="short") follows the little-endian order (d M y). There are other locales that have a different order for pure numeric forms. Here is Swedish, for example, which has big-endian order for pure numeric, and otherwise little-endian order.

<dateFormatLength type="full"><pattern>EEEE d MMMM y</pattern>
<dateFormatLength type="long"><pattern>d MMMM y</pattern>
<dateFormatLength type="medium"><pattern>d MMM y</pattern>
<dateFormatLength type="short"><pattern>y-MM-dd</pattern>

Needs further investigation.


en-PK has the stock date format:

<dateFormatLength type="medium"><pattern>dd-MMM-y</pattern>

Side note: There are conflicting interval formats, but they are unconfirmed and thus typically ignored (eg by ICU):
<greatestDifference id="d" draft="unconfirmed">MMM d – d, y</greatestDifference>

It inherits from en_001
Cf. <parentLocale parent="en_001" locales="en_150 en_AG en_AI en_AU en_BB en_BE en_BM en_BS en_BW en_BZ en_CA en_CC en_CK en_CM en_CX en_CY en_DG en_DM en_ER en_FJ en_FK en_FM en_GB en_GD en_GG en_GH en_GI en_GM en_GY en_HK en_IE en_IL en_IM en_IN en_IO en_JE en_JM en_KE en_KI en_KN en_KY en_LC en_LR en_LS en_MG en_MO en_MS en_MT en_MU en_MW en_MY en_NA en_NF en_NG en_NR en_NU en_NZ en_PG en_PH en_PK en_PN en_PW en_RW en_SB en_SC en_SD en_SG en_SH en_SL en_SS en_SX en_SZ en_TC en_TK en_TO en_TT en_TV en_TZ en_UG en_VC en_VG en_VU en_WS en_ZA en_ZM en_ZW"/>

en_001 has the following stock formats, consistently little-endian. So only the medium one is overridden.

<dateFormatLength type="full"><pattern>EEEE, d MMMM y</pattern>
<dateFormatLength type="long"><pattern>d MMMM y</pattern>
<dateFormatLength type="medium"><pattern>d MMM y</pattern>
<dateFormatLength type="short"><pattern>dd/MM/y</pattern>

The interval and available formats for en_001 are consistently little-endian

<dateFormatItem id="yM">MM/y</dateFormatItem>
<dateFormatItem id="yMd">dd/MM/y</dateFormatItem>
<dateFormatItem id="yMEd">E, dd/MM/y</dateFormatItem>
<dateFormatItem id="yMMMd">d MMM y</dateFormatItem>
<dateFormatItem id="yMMMEd">E, d MMM y</dateFormatItem>

<intervalFormatItem id="yMd">

<greatestDifference id="d">dd/MM/y – dd/MM/y</greatestDifference>
<greatestDifference id="M">dd/MM/y – dd/MM/y</greatestDifference>
<greatestDifference id="y">dd/MM/y – dd/MM/y</greatestDifference>



Change History

comment:1 Changed 5 months ago by mark

  • Status changed from new to accepted
  • Cc kristi, chiara, fredrik added
  • Component changed from unknown to datetime
  • Priority changed from assess to major
  • Milestone changed from UNSCH to 33
  • Owner changed from anybody to chiara
  • Type changed from unknown to data

comment:2 Changed 5 months ago by fredrik

From one of our in-house resources: "In my experience, when written out the dates are indeed “December 11, 2017”. Numerical dates are always day/month/year, i.e 20/12/2017, I’ve never seen month/day/year over there."

comment:3 Changed 5 months ago by chiara

Google enPK linguist provided following feedback:
"The most common date formats are
(1) <M d, y> e.g. December 25, 2017 (in line with Apple)
(2) <DD-MM-YYYY> e.g. 25-12-2017 (same order of #3 option, but hyphen rather than forward slash)
(3) <DD/MM/YYYY> e.g. 25/12/2017 (in line with Apple)

<DD-MM-YY> e.g. 25-12-17 is also widely used.
Never seen month/day/year format in written documents."

comment:4 Changed 3 months ago by mark

Just to recap. The current en_PK format has these 4 forms.

<dateFormatLength type="full"><pattern>EEEE, d MMMM y</pattern>
<dateFormatLength type="long"><pattern>d MMMM y</pattern>
<dateFormatLength type="medium"><pattern>dd-MMM-y</pattern>
<dateFormatLength type="short"><pattern>dd/MM/y</pattern>

(The bold form is an override of the British English form, that just changes <pattern>d MMM y</pattern> to replace hyphens by spaces.)

The original ticket was not about the numeric form, but about the longer forms, like: "December 11, 2017" and "Dec. 11, 2017". It looks like the feedback gathered did not ask about the form "Dec. 11, 2017".

But based on the feedback, it appears that we should change at least the first 2 values to have long-month then day:

<dateFormatLength type="full"><pattern>EEEE, MMMM d, y</pattern>
<dateFormatLength type="long"><pattern>MMMM d, y</pattern>
<dateFormatLength type="medium"><pattern>dd-MMM-y</pattern>
<dateFormatLength type="short"><pattern>dd/MM/y</pattern>

Given the late date, I suspect we would be better not changing "medium" until we get further feedback.

comment:5 Changed 3 months ago by chiara

According to Google enPK linguist, it appears that full, long, medium patterns need to change with month displayed before day:
<dateFormatLength type="full"><pattern>EEEE, MMMM d, y</pattern>
<dateFormatLength type="long"><pattern>MMMM d, y</pattern>
<dateFormatLength type="medium"><pattern>MMM d, y</pattern>

Specifically for medium format, MMM (month) should be displayed before day (ie. "Dec. 11, 2017")
On a side note, linguist flagged that medium form is not frequently used in enPK - quote “we usually use full month and day names”, with full and long patterns more common that medium pattern.
See example from the Prime Minister's Office website - http://pmo.gov.pk/pm_messages.php

comment:6 Changed 3 months ago by mark

  • Milestone changed from 33 to 34

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