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CLDR Ticket #10835(closed: fixed)

Opened 11 months ago

Last modified 4 weeks ago

Typographic Names in CLDR

Reported by: sascha Owned by: sascha
Component: other Data Locale:
Phase: dvet Review: mark
Weeks: Data Xpath:
Xref:

ticket:10948

Attachments

typoterms.pdf (232.5 KB) - added by sascha 11 months ago.
Proposal
typoterms.xml (125.2 KB) - added by sascha 11 months ago.
Contributed data

Change History

Changed 11 months ago by sascha

Proposal

Changed 11 months ago by sascha

Contributed data

comment:1 Changed 11 months ago by kent.karlsson14@…

Far too much uppercase. The names/terms should be written as they would be INSIDE a sentence (not beginning of sentence).

comment:2 follow-up: ↓ 4 Changed 11 months ago by sascha

The contributed strings come from Apple, Adobe, and Microsoft and are used in this form in their respective systems. If the CLDR committee wants to change the strings, we can of course change them, perhaps algorithmically.

comment:3 Changed 11 months ago by kent.karlsson14@…

Another thing: you have no and nb, which would be the same in CLDR (there is no "no.xml" in CLDR).

(supplementalMetadata has '<languageAlias type="no" replacement="nb" reason="legacy"/>'.)

(likelySubtags strangely has '<likelySubtag from="no" to="no_Latn_NO"/>'. That should probably be nb_Latn_NO.)

comment:4 in reply to: ↑ 2 Changed 11 months ago by kent.karlsson14@…

Replying to sascha:

we can of course change them, perhaps algorithmically.

Yes, please.

comment:5 Changed 11 months ago by kent.karlsson14@…

I've done a deeper analysis of one of the translations suggestions, the one for Swedish. However, I think many of the points in the analysis apply to many other translation suggestions here.

All of the translations for 'sv' (at least) seem to be made "direct from English" (without any analysis of meaning), and by someone who has no familiarity with typography or typographic terms, nor bothered to try to find out. Admittedly, there is some need for invention here; e.g. the term "ultraexpanderad" is not in common use, but in line with the typographic terminology in use.

Some details:

  1. "valfria" -> "valbara" (minor difference in meaning, I think the latter is better).
  1. "opsz" subtype="8" and "12" are missing (but the most common and most important).
  1. "Skärm" ((computer) screen) is definitely very wrong. There are other meanings of "skärm" ("display"), but I think this is just a misunderstanding in translation.
  1. "Uppåtriktad" ("directed upwards") is also very wrong, it should be "upprät".
  1. It is not "komprimerad" but "kondenserad" (even though the former is logical, it is not the word used in this context). There are also some needless (some wrong) variants that should be deleted (deriving from too-direct translations of the English original).
  1. Several of the translations for subtypes of "wdth" and "wght" are wrong in other ways as well (more on that below).
  1. Some "variants" are taken from the English original, but are ill-advised also for English, let alone other languages.
  1. Mapping both upper- and lowercase letter to smallcaps seems ill-advised (but I know it is common); mapping to uppercase should be done by other means, and is language dependent (which I think is hardly built into fonts, even if it would be possible, which I don't think it is in current OT). Better, though, to use "c2sc" which maps only uppercase to smallcaps, leaving the mapping to uppercase to other (non-OT) mechanisms.
  1. "Slashed zero", well that is a bad idea, it looks like a Danish/Norwegian "Ö" (Ø). There were also designs in which the zero got a dot in the middle instead. So in order not to bias the design needlessly, let's just call it "marked zero", or even better "marked 0", since this applies only to the ASCII 0, not zeroes in other scripts. ("markerad 0:a" in Swedish.)
  1. "Lined/old digits" are called "versala/gemena siffror" (i.e. uppercase vs. lowercsse) in Swedish.
  1. "ordn" seems to be a particularly bad idea. It seems applicable only for English. Even if technically possible to cover more languages (not sure it is at all), that is also a bad idea, since it cannot cater for the in-language variation of ordinal notation (in, for instance, Swedish, Spanish, French, ...). CLDR has other mechanisms (via RBNF) that can handle this better. (Though the superscripts for the moment have been removed, I did submit ordinal digits with superscript letters; those should be reintroduced.) "ordn" should be deprecated in OT. While CLDR cannot do that on its own, there is no need for CLDR to include translations for "ordn". Please remove all of them.

For the continuous axes (weight, etc.) someone has picked particular values. I think it would be better to use explicit ranges instead. But that is an architectural change, so I haven't worked that in in the XML snippet below.

For (human) readability, I've rearranged the lines so that "logically close" lines are also physically close in the XML snippet.

	<!-- in common/main/sv.xml -->
	<typographicNames>
		<featureName type="dlig">valbara ligaturer</featureName>
		<featureName type="afrc">vertikala bråk</featureName>
		<featureName type="frac">diagonala bråk</featureName>
		<featureName type="lnum">versala siffror</featureName>
		<featureName type="onum">gemena siffror</featureName>
		<featureName type="pnum">visa 0-9 i olika bredder</featureName>
		<featureName type="tnum">visa 0-9 i samma bredd</featureName>
		<featureName type="zero">markerad 0:a</featureName>
		<featureName type="smcp">visa versaler och gemener som kapitäler</featureName>
		<featureName type="c3cp">visa versaler som kapitäler</featureName>

		<axisName type="ital">normal/kursiv</axisName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0">rak stil</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0" alt="variant">antikva</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0" alt="variant2">normal stil</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="1">kursivstil</styleName>

		<axisName type="opsz">optisk anpassning</axisName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="8">mikrotext</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="8" alt="variant">bildtext</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="12">brödtext</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="18">rubriktext</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="72">skylttext</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="72" alt="variant">dekaltext</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="144">affischtext</styleName>

		<axisName type="slnt">lutning</axisName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="0">upprät</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="12">lutande</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="24">extralutande</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="-12">bakåtlutande</styleName>

		<axisName type="wdth">snittbredd</axisName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="50">ultrakondenserad</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="50" alt="variant">ultrasmal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="62.5">extrakondenserad</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="62.5" alt="variant">extrasmal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="75">kondenserad</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="75" alt="variant">smal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="87.5">halvkondenserad</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="87.5" alt="variant">halvsmal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="100">normalbred</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="112.5">halvexpanderad</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="112.5" alt="variant">halvbred</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="125">expanderad</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="125" alt="variant">bred</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="150">extraexpanderad</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="150" alt="variant">extrabred</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="200">ultraexpanderad</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="200" alt="variant">ultrabred</styleName>

		<axisName type="wght">vikt</axisName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="100">ultramager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="200">extramager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="300">mager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="350">halvmager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="380">hypomager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="400">normalvikt</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="500">hypofet</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="600">halvfet</styleName>	
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="700">fet</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="800">extrafet</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="900">ultrafet</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="950">hyperfet</styleName>
	</typographicNames>

comment:6 Changed 11 months ago by kent.karlsson14@…

  1. In typographic context the translation (to sv) of "thin" is "mager", not "tunn".
  1. Generally missing is type="ital" subtype="0", which is "antiqua" (i.e. not italic...).

Typo:

		<featureName type="c3cp">visa versaler som kapitäler</featureName>

should be

		<featureName type="c2sc">visa versaler som kapitäler</featureName>

Not clear if c2sc (and smcp) show "lining" (uppercase) digits as small digits. They should...

comment:7 Changed 11 months ago by sascha

If the committee approves, I’d propose the following next steps:

  1. Check in the data in the present form (with strings as supplied by Apple/Adobe) and the corresponding changes to the LDML DTD. The Norwegian data would go into nb.xml instead of no.xml.
  2. Manually make two changes to the data via Subversion: (a) lowercase all strings with exception of German nouns; (b) insert a hyphen for English camel-cased strings (eg. change “BackSlanted” to “Back-Slanted”).
  3. Resolve any other issues (eg. Swedish translations) via the usual vetting process, or in separate follow-up bugs.

comment:8 Changed 11 months ago by mark

  • Owner changed from anybody to sascha
  • Phase changed from dsub to dvet
  • Priority changed from assess to major
  • Status changed from new to accepted
  • Milestone changed from UNSCH to 33

comment:9 Changed 11 months ago by pedberg

  • Cc pedberg, ned@… added

comment:10 Changed 11 months ago by kent.karlsson14@…

Resolve any other issues (eg. Swedish translations) via the usual vetting process, or in separate follow-up bugs.

Deferring this to ST is far to clumsy to give any good results. And the problems do not only refer to Swedish, but all languages.

Here is a small update for Swedish, plus suggestions for Norwegian, Danish and English.


Swedish:

	<!-- in common/main/sv.xml -->
	<typographicNames>
		<featureName type="dlig">valbara ligaturer</featureName>
		<featureName type="afrc">vertikala bråk</featureName>
		<featureName type="frac">diagonala bråk</featureName>
		<featureName type="lnum">versala siffror</featureName>
		<featureName type="onum">gemena siffror</featureName>
		<featureName type="pnum">visa 0-9 i olika bredder</featureName>
		<featureName type="tnum">visa 0-9 i samma bredd</featureName>
		<featureName type="zero">markerad 0:a</featureName>
		<featureName type="smcp">visa versaler och gemener som kapitäler</featureName>
		<featureName type="c2sc">visa versaler som kapitäler</featureName>

		<axisName type="ital">normal/kursiv</axisName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0">rak stil</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0" alt="variant">antikva</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0" alt="variant2">normal stil</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="1">kursivstil</styleName>

		<axisName type="opsz">optisk anpassning</axisName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="8">mikrotext</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="8" alt="variant">bildtext</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="12">brödtext</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="18">rubriktext</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="18" alt="variant">titeltext</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="72">skylttext</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="72" alt="variant">dekaltext</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="144">affischtext</styleName>

		<axisName type="slnt">lutning</axisName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="0">upprät</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="12">lutande</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="24">extralutande</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="-12">bakåtlutande</styleName>

		<axisName type="wdth">snittbredd</axisName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="50">ultrakondenserad</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="50" alt="variant">ultrasmal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="62.5">extrakondenserad</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="62.5" alt="variant">extrasmal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="75">kondenserad</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="75" alt="variant">smal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="87.5">halvkondenserad</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="87.5" alt="variant">halvsmal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="100">normalbred</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="112.5">halvexpanderad</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="112.5" alt="variant">halvbred</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="125">expanderad</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="125" alt="variant">bred</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="150">extraexpanderad</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="150" alt="variant">extrabred</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="200">ultraexpanderad</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="200" alt="variant">ultrabred</styleName>

		<axisName type="wght">vikt</axisName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="100">ultramager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="200">extramager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="300">mager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="350">halvmager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="380">hypomager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="400">normalvikt</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="500">hypofet</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="600">halvfet</styleName>	
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="700">fet</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="800">extrafet</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="900">ultrafet</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="950">hyperfet</styleName>
	</typographicNames>

Norwegian (bokmål):

	<!-- in common/main/nb.xml -->
	<typographicNames>
		<featureName type="dlig">valgbare ligaturer</featureName>
		<featureName type="afrc">vertikale brøker</featureName>
		<featureName type="frac">diagonale brøker</featureName>
		<featureName type="lnum">versale siffer</featureName>
		<featureName type="onum">gemene siffer</featureName>
		<featureName type="pnum">vis 0-9 i ulige bredder</featureName>
		<featureName type="tnum">vis 0-9 i samma bredd</featureName>
		<featureName type="zero">markert 0</featureName>
		<featureName type="smcp">vis versaler og gemener som kapitéler</featureName>
		<featureName type="c2sc">vis versaler som kapitéler</featureName>

		<axisName type="ital">normal/kursiv</axisName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0">rett stil</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0" alt="variant">antikva</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0" alt="variant2">normal stil</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="1">kursivstil</styleName>

		<axisName type="opsz">optisk tilpasning</axisName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="8">mikrotekst</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="8" alt="variant">bildetekst</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="12">brødtekst</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="18">rubriktekst</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="18" alt="variant">titteltekst</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="72">skilttekst</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="144">plakattekst</styleName>

		<axisName type="slnt">helling</axisName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="0">opprett</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="12">hellende</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="24">extrahellende</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="-12">bakoverhellende</styleName>

		<axisName type="wdth">snittbredd</axisName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="50">ultrakondensert</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="50" alt="variant">ultrasmal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="62.5">extrakondensert</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="62.5" alt="variant">extrasmal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="75">kondensert</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="75" alt="variant">smal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="87.5">halvkondensert</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="87.5" alt="variant">halvsmal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="100">normalbred</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="112.5">halvekspandert</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="112.5" alt="variant">halvbred</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="125">ekspandert</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="125" alt="variant">bred</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="150">ekstraekspandert</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="150" alt="variant">ekstrabred</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="200">ultraexpandert</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="200" alt="variant">ultrabred</styleName>

		<axisName type="wght">vegt</axisName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="100">ultramager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="200">extramager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="300">mager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="350">halvmager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="380">hypomager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="400">normalvegt</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="500">hypofet</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="600">halvfet</styleName>	
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="700">fet</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="800">ekstrafet</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="900">ultrafet</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="950">hyperfet</styleName>
	</typographicNames>

Danish:

	<!-- in common/main/da.xml -->
	<typographicNames>
		<featureName type="dlig">valgbare ligaturer</featureName>
		<featureName type="afrc">vertikale brøker</featureName>
		<featureName type="frac">diagonale brøker</featureName>
		<featureName type="lnum">versale cifre</featureName>
		<featureName type="onum">gemene cifre</featureName>
		<featureName type="pnum">vis 0-9 i ulige bredder</featureName>
		<featureName type="tnum">vis 0-9 i samme bredde</featureName>
		<featureName type="zero">markert 0</featureName>
		<featureName type="smcp">vis versaler og gemener som kapitæler</featureName>
		<featureName type="c2sc">vis versaler som kapitæler</featureName>

		<axisName type="ital">normal/kursiv</axisName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0">lige stil</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0" alt="variant">antikva</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0" alt="variant2">normal stil</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="1">kursivstil</styleName>

		<axisName type="opsz">optisk tilpasning</axisName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="8">mikrotekst</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="8" alt="variant">billedtekst</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="12">brødtekst</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="18">rubriktekst</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="18" alt="variant">titeltekst</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="72">skilttekst</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="144">plakattekst</styleName>

		<axisName type="slnt">hældning</axisName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="0">opret</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="12">hældende</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="24">extrahældende</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="-12">bagudhældende</styleName>

		<axisName type="wdth">snittbredd</axisName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="50">ultrakondenseret</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="50" alt="variant">ultrasmal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="62.5">extrakondenseret</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="62.5" alt="variant">extrasmal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="75">kondenseret</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="75" alt="variant">smal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="87.5">halvkondenseret</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="87.5" alt="variant">halvsmal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="100">normalbred</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="112.5">halvekspanderet</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="112.5" alt="variant">halvbred</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="125">ekspanderet</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="125" alt="variant">bred</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="150">ekstraekspanderet</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="150" alt="variant">extrabred</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="200">ultraexpanderet</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="200" alt="variant">ultrabred</styleName>

		<axisName type="wght">vægt</axisName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="100">ultramager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="200">extramager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="300">mager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="350">halvmager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="380">hypomager</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="400">normalvægt</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="500">hypofed</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="600">halvfed</styleName>	
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="700">fed</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="800">ekstrafed</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="900">ultrafed</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="950">hyperfed</styleName>
	</typographicNames>

To bring some order to the mess, here is also a suggestion for English:

	<!-- in common/main/en.xml -->
	<typographicNames>
		<featureName type="dlig">optional ligatures</featureName>
		<featureName type="afrc">vertical fractions</featureName>
		<featureName type="frac">diagonal fractions</featureName>
		<featureName type="lnum">majuscule digits</featureName>
		<featureName type="onum">minuscule digits</featureName>
		<featureName type="pnum">show 0-9 with different widths</featureName>
		<featureName type="tnum">show 0-9 with the same width</featureName>
		<featureName type="zero">marked 0</featureName>
		<featureName type="smcp">show majuscules and minuscules as small caps</featureName>
		<featureName type="c2sc">show majuscules as small caps</featureName>

		<axisName type="ital">normal/cursive</axisName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0">roman style</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0" alt="variant">antiqua</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0" alt="variant2">normal style</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="1">cursive style</styleName>

		<axisName type="opsz">optical adaptation</axisName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="8">caption</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="12">running text</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="18">title text</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="72">display text</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="144">poster text</styleName>

		<axisName type="slnt">slant</axisName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="0">upright</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="12">slanted</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="24">extra slanted</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="-12">backslanted</styleName>

		<axisName type="wdth">width</axisName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="50">ultracondensed</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="50" alt="variant">ultranarrow</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="62.5">extra condensed</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="62.5" alt="variant">extra narrow</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="75">condensed</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="75" alt="variant">narrow</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="87.5">semicondensed</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="87.5" alt="variant">seminarrow</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="100">normal width</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="112.5">semiexpanded</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="112.5" alt="variant">semiwide</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="125">expanded</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="125" alt="variant">wide</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="150">extra expanded</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="150" alt="variant">extra wide</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="200">ultraexpanded</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="200" alt="variant">ultrawide</styleName>

		<axisName type="wght">weight</axisName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="100">ultralight</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="200">extra light</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="300">light</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="350">semilight</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="380">hypolight</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="380" alt="variant">book</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="400">normal weight</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="400" alt="variant">regular</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="500">hypobold</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="500" alt="variant">medium</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="600">semibold</styleName>	
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="700">bold</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="800">extra bold</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="900">ultrabold</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="900" alt="variant">black</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="950">hyperbold</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="950" alt="variant">extra black</styleName>
	</typographicNames>

comment:11 Changed 11 months ago by kent.karlsson14@…

For opsz, slnt, wdth, wght, use (predetermined, fixed) ranges. While the subtype values are only meant as identifiers, they are actual size indications. If read as size indications, which is what they really are, using just one value is both misleading and erroneous. They need to be ranges. The ranges need to be predetermined (fixed) so as to preserve the identifier quality that you want. One can use either 'from='/'to=' style or indicate the range by other means, e.g. subtype="120-200" or subtype="120..200". The ranges for each type should together cover the entire range of allowable values for that type (with minimal overlaps). This helps applications pick an appropriate subtype name in case a font has a value that is not one of the fixed single values you picked above (interpreting the range as a range, not just an identifier).

comment:12 Changed 10 months ago by kent.karlsson14@…

The translation for German you have give has at least one glaring error: the translation for <styleName type="slnt" subtype="12">, "Abgeschrägt", seems to mean "bevelled", which is not right.

German:

	<!-- in common/main/de.xml -->
	<typographicNames>
		<featureName type="dlig">optionale Ligaturen</featureName>
		<featureName type="afrc">vertikale Brüche</featureName>
		<featureName type="frac">diagonale Brüche</featureName>
		<featureName type="lnum">Majuskelziffern</featureName>
		<featureName type="onum">Minuskelziffern</featureName>
		<featureName type="pnum">zeigen 0-9 mit verschiedene Breiten</featureName>
		<featureName type="tnum">zeigen 0-9 mit die gleiche Breite</featureName>
		<featureName type="zero">markierte 0</featureName>
		<featureName type="smcp">zeigen Versalien und Gemeinen als Kapitälchen</featureName>
		<featureName type="c2sc">zeigen Versalien als Kapitälchen</featureName>

		<axisName type="ital">normal/kursiv</axisName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0">römisch Stil</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0" alt="variant">antikva</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0" alt="variant2">normal Stil</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="1">kursiv Stil</styleName>

		<axisName type="opsz">optische Anpassung</axisName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="8">Bildunterschrift</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="12">fortlaufender Text</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="18">Überschrift</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="72">Schildtext</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="144">Plakattext</styleName>

		<axisName type="slnt">Schräge</axisName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="0">aufrecht</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="12">gelehnt</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="24">extragelehnt</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="-12">rückwärtsgelehnt</styleName>

		<axisName type="wdth">Breite</axisName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="50">ultrakondensiert</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="50" alt="variant">ultraschmal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="62.5">extrakondensiert</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="62.5" alt="variant">extraschmal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="75">kondensiert</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="75" alt="variant">schmal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="87.5">semikondensiert</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="87.5" alt="variant">semischmal</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="100">normal width</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="112.5">semiexpandiert</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="112.5" alt="variant">semibreit</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="125">expandiert</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="125" alt="variant">breit</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="150">extraexpandiert</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="150" alt="variant">extrabreit</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="200">ultraexpandiert</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="200" alt="variant">ultrabreit</styleName>

		<axisName type="wght">Gewicht</axisName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="100">ultradünn</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="200">extradünn</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="300">dünn</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="350">semidünn</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="380">hypodünn</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="400">normalgewichtet</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="500">hypofett</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="600">semifett</styleName>	
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="700">fett</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="800">extrafett</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="900">ultrafett</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="900" alt="variant">schwarz</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="950">hyperfett</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="950" alt="variant">extraschwarz</styleName>
	</typographicNames>

The translation for French you have give has at least one glaring error: the translation for <featureName type="zero">, "Ensemble vide", means "empty set", which is an obvious confusion. (Would like to use "majusculettes" for "small caps"...; unfortunately I find very little support for that.)

Here is my suggestion for French:

	<!-- in common/main/fr.xml -->
	<typographicNames>
		<featureName type="dlig">ligatures en option</featureName>
		<featureName type="dlig" alt="variant">ligatures facultatives</featureName>
		<featureName type="afrc">fractions verticales</featureName>
		<featureName type="frac">fractions diagonales</featureName>
		<featureName type="lnum">chiffres majuscules</featureName>
		<featureName type="onum">chiffres minuscules</featureName>
		<featureName type="pnum">montrer 0-9 en largeurs différentes</featureName>
		<featureName type="tnum">montrer 0-9 en largeur fixé</featureName>
		<featureName type="zero">0s marquées</featureName>
		<featureName type="smcp">montrer majuscules et minuscules comme petites majuscules</featureName>
		<featureName type="c2sc">montrer majuscules comme petites majuscules</featureName>

		<axisName type="ital">normal/italique</axisName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0">style romain</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0" alt="variant">style normal</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="1">style italique</styleName>

		<axisName type="opsz">adaptation optique</axisName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="8">police de légende</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="12">police de corp</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="18">police de titre</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="72">police de signe</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="144">police d’affichage</styleName>

		<axisName type="slnt">obliquité</axisName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="0">verticales</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="12">obliques</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="24">extra-obliques</styleName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="-12">obliques inversées</styleName>

		<axisName type="wdth">largeur</axisName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="50">ultracondensées</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="62.5">extra-condensées</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="75">condensées</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="87.5">semicondensées</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="100">largeurs normales</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="112.5">semiexpandées</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="125">expandées</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="150">extra-expandées</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="200">ultraexpandées</styleName>

		<axisName type="wght">épaisseur</axisName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="100">ultramaigres</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="100" alt="variant">ultralégers</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="200">extra-maigres</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="200" alt="variant">extra-légers</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="300">maigres</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="300" alt="variant">légers</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="350">semimaigres</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="350" alt="variant">semilégers</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="380">hypomaigres</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="380" alt="variant">hypolégers</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="400">graisses normals</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="500">hypogras</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="600">semigras</styleName>	
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="700">gras</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="800">extra-gras</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="900">ultragras</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="900" alt="variant">noirs</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="950">hypergras</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="950" alt="variant">extra-noirs</styleName>
	</typographicNames>

For Spanish there is a formal difference between diminutive form and normal form, but in actual practice, they are not distinguished (diminutive is used more as an "endearing form", not a real difference). Hence one cannot distinguish between "negrito" and "negro" font weights (which you try to do in the translations originally submitted).

Here is my suggestion for Spanish:

	<!-- in common/main/es.xml -->
	<typographicNames>
		<featureName type="dlig">ligaduras opcionales</featureName>
		<featureName type="afrc">fracciones verticales</featureName>
		<featureName type="frac">fracciones diagonales</featureName>
		<featureName type="lnum">figuras mayúsculas</featureName>
		<featureName type="onum">figuras minúsculas</featureName>
		<featureName type="pnum">muestra 0-9 en anchuras diferentes</featureName>
		<featureName type="tnum">muestra 0-9 en anchura fijo</featureName>
		<featureName type="zero">0s marcados</featureName>
		<featureName type="smcp">mostrar mayúsculas y minúsculas como versalitas</featureName>
		<featureName type="c2sc">mostrar mayúsculas como versalitas</featureName>

		<axisName type="ital">normal/cursivo</axisName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0">estilo romano</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="0" alt="variant">estilo normal</styleName>
		<styleName type="ital" subtype="1">estilo cursivo</styleName>

		<axisName type="opsz">adaptación óptica</axisName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="8">fuente de la leyenda</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="12">fuente del cuerpo</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="18">fuente del título</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="72">fuente de signo</styleName>
		<styleName type="opsz" subtype="144">fuente d’afiche</styleName>

		<axisName type="slnt">oblicuidad</axisName>
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="0">verticales</styleName>   ..
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="12">oblicuas</styleName>     ...
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="24">extra-oblicuas</styleName>    ...
		<styleName type="slnt" subtype="-12">oblicuas invertidas</styleName>   ...

		<axisName type="wdth">anchura</axisName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="50">ultracondensadas</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="62.5">extra-condensadas</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="75">condensadas</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="87.5">semicondensadas</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="100">anchos normales</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="112.5">semiexpandidas</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="125">expandidas</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="150">extra-expandidas</styleName>
		<styleName type="wdth" subtype="200">ultraexpandidas</styleName>

		<axisName type="wght">espesor</axisName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="100">ultramagras</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="100" alt="variant">ultraligeras</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="200">extra-magras</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="200" alt="variant">extra-ligeras</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="300">magras</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="300" alt="variant">ligeras</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="350">semimagras</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="350" alt="variant">semiligeras</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="380">hypomagras</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="380" alt="variant">hypoligeras</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="400">graisses normals</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="500">hyponegritas</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="600">seminegritas</styleName>	
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="700">negritas</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="800">extra-negritas</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="900">ultranegritas</styleName>
		<styleName type="wght" subtype="950">hypernegritas</styleName>
	</typographicNames>

comment:13 Changed 10 months ago by kent.karlsson14@…

Also: delete the "es_419.xml" snippet.

comment:14 Changed 9 months ago by sascha

  • Status changed from accepted to reviewing
  • Review set to mark

comment:15 Changed 9 months ago by mark

Looks good except that it needs one extra piece:

Based on an email exchange with Peter:

+ <casingItem type="typographicNames">lowercase</casingItem>

The casingItem is to specify how strings should be lettercased in the CLDR data, which is generally how they should be lettercased in the middle of a regular sentence. If we know what that should be for a given language, we can add a casingItem for that language.... Where we specify the lettercasing for specific usages like menus and standalone use is in a contextTransform item in the common/main/ locale files

When I look at the data, I see that every case of uiListOrMenu has titlecase-firstword. Now, each of those is only specified by a particular context, such as:

<contextTransformUsage type="day-format-except-narrow">

<contextTransform type="uiListOrMenu">titlecase-firstword</contextTransform>

</contextTransformUsage>

What I recommend for now is for each language where Sascha lowercased first letters from the original source, to add

<contextTransformUsage type="typographicNames">

<contextTransform type="uiListOrMenu">titlecase-firstword</contextTransform>

</contextTransformUsage>

I filed https://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/10944 for a possible addition that could be useful for some languages.

Last edited 9 months ago by mark (previous) (diff)

comment:16 Changed 9 months ago by mark

Also, please file a separate ticket for the spec changes. Those can wait until after alpha.

  1. Describing typographicNames and the subordinate new elements/attributes.
  2. Adding transformNames to https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/tr35-general.html#contextTransformUsage_type_attribute_values

comment:17 Changed 9 months ago by mark

  • Status changed from reviewing to reviewfeedback

comment:18 Changed 9 months ago by mark

Also, please change "semi bold" to "semibold" (in en), the latter is more common.

comment:19 Changed 9 months ago by sascha

comment:20 Changed 9 months ago by sascha

  • Xref set to 10948

comment:21 Changed 9 months ago by sascha

  • Status changed from reviewfeedback to reviewing

comment:22 Changed 9 months ago by mark

  • Status changed from reviewing to closed
  • Resolution set to fixed

comment:23 Changed 4 weeks ago by mark

  • Component changed from main to other
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