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CLDR Ticket #4802(accepted data)

Opened 6 years ago

Last modified 3 years ago

fr://ldml/characters/embedded-Start

Reported by: verdy_p@… Owned by: googler
Component: main Data Locale: fr
Phase: Review:
Weeks: Data Xpath: 7ed88347aa1b55ed
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Description

The examples shown to test the patterns are using mixed languages.

However this has a bad effect : In French the normal quaotation marks are « » and the embedded quotation marks are “ ”.

This is valid as long as we are in a French context. But the sentence used for testing it shows an English context, so it wins for the quotation marks and they have been validated in the reverse way.

The general rule is that the main quotation marks adopt the language of the inner paragraph, if there's nothing before in the same paragraph. Otherwise it uses the language of the text around the quotation.

The language used in the inner quoation then determines which quotation marks will be used if there's an embedded quotation (in French, these embedded quotation marks are independant of the language of the embedded quotation : quotations belong to the outer context, not to the inner context.

So yes, we would write :

“They said «Calendrier grégorien».”

if this is the only content of the paragraph. But it would be:

L’Anglais m’a répondu « They said “calendrier grégorien”. »

Or with French only (equivalent quotation marks):

Le Français m’a répondu « Ils ont dit “ calendrier grégorien. ” »

Note the non-breaking spaces that appear in the embedded French quotation, this is normal as these spaces adopt the separation rules for the inner language.

Or equivalently as well :

Le Français m’a répondu :

« Ils ont dit “ calendrier grégorien. ” »

Note also that the final punctuation is moved within the quotation. French will keep some other elements within the quotation if this avoid interrupting a quotation to reopen it :

« J’en suis sûr, dit-il avec assurance, je l’ai vu ! »

instead of :

« J’en suis sûr, » dit-il avec assurance, « je l’ai vu ! »

This applies to inverted verbs describing the action of speaking made by the cited person, such as "dire", "répondre", "affirmer", "nier", "se fâcher", and so on, where there's no introduction before the citation, and this appears in the middle on the citation. There's no ambiguity because of the different subjects here between the first person used in the citation, and the third person used for naming the quoted speaker.

In other words, the main quotation marks in French are really « ». These should be the default. Vetters should not look at the example that mixes the languages.

I suggest that you use sentences only with a single language, or that you use a pseudo sentence for testing embedded quotations.

E.g. You could use the translated labels that are defined elsewhere if you lack resources for inserting meaningful examplar sentences for each language :

« écriture : “latin”. »

If they are not translated, then use instead pseudo-words :

aaaa : « bbbb “cccc” dddd ».

This will avoid errors when vetters change the initially defined quotation marks, and universally change them into English quotation marks at the primarily level of quotation, only because the examplar sentence in the outer quotation is in English !

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Change History

comment:1 Changed 6 years ago by emmons

  • Owner changed from anybody to jchye
  • Status changed from new to assigned
  • Milestone changed from UNSCH to future

comment:2 Changed 4 years ago by emmons

  • Milestone changed from future to UNSCH

Merging future and UNSCH

comment:3 Changed 3 years ago by markus

  • Type changed from defect to data

comment:4 Changed 3 years ago by srl

  • Status changed from assigned to accepted

comment:5 Changed 3 years ago by markus

  • version 22 deleted

comment:6 Changed 3 years ago by mark

  • Owner changed from jchye to googler
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