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CLDR Ticket #6502(accepted data)

Opened 4 years ago

Last modified 2 years ago

North Saami (sme) and South Saami (sma) pluralization rules

Reported by: ryan.txanson@… Owned by: mark
Component: plurals Data Locale:
Phase: dsub Review:
Weeks: Data Xpath:
Xref:

Description

It appears that the data existing on the site now has confused the presence of dual in pronominal and verb agreement systems to mean that nouns have a singular, dual and plural number system. This difference is fairly common in languages, rather, that a pronominal system with dual number does not imply a nominal system with dual number-- so, I'd recommend taking a peek at the other languages just to make sure.

In any case, for North and South Saami, in nouns and noun phrases, there are two categories. Both of the languages have several morphologically expressed cases, and there are some agreement rules when the noun phrase occurs in a case other than nominative, which are not relevant here. So, the general rule is:

  • one - 1
  • other - 0, 2-999, 1.2, etc.

Some examples in North Saami, using the word beana 'dog'. The complement is in nominative case when the number is 1, and genitive case otherwise.

  • 1 dog - okta beana
  • 2 dogs - guokte beatnaga
  • 3 dogs - golbma beatnaga
  • 4 dogs - njeallje beatnaga

Some examples for South Saami, using the world bïenje 'dog'. The complement is in nominative singular when the number is 1, and nominative plural when the number is 2. As mentioned above the system is a bit more complex when the NP is in another case (i.e., illative), but this is not relevant here.

  • 1 dog - okta bïenje
  • 2 dogs - göökte bïenjeh
  • 3 dogs - golme bïenjeh
  • 4 dogs - njieljie bïenjeh

References: the following links go to relevant grammar articles written for learners of the languages, written in Norwegian.

[1]: South Saami: http://oahpa.no/sma/gramm/tallord.nob.html#Tallord+sammen+med+substantiv
[2]: North Saami: http://oahpa.no/sme/gramm/logut.nob.html#Enkle+tallord+sammen+med+substantiv

Attachments

Change History

comment:1 Changed 4 years ago by emmons

Northern sami in CLDR is code "se", not "sme", as a 2-letter code exists.

comment:2 Changed 4 years ago by ryan.txanson@…

My mistake, in CLDR it's "se". Force of habit from the work I do to use ISO 639-2 codes for all Saami languages.

comment:3 Changed 4 years ago by emmons

  • Cc erriki, kkarlson@… added
  • Owner changed from anybody to mark
  • Status changed from new to assigned
  • Component changed from unknown to data
  • Milestone changed from UNSCH to 25dsub

comment:4 Changed 4 years ago by emmons

  • Cc erkki added; erriki removed

comment:5 Changed 4 years ago by eik@…

We had a meeting at the Sámi Cultural Center in Inari on April 24th, and we were informed that there is a Nordic joint project (with funding) to work on the Sämi languages. The project will eventually be responsible also for the CLDR data, but they haven't started that work yet; since they clearly couldn't make it for 25, I understand that they are targeting at 26. I'll try to contact them this week on this, but I suspect that we'll have to wait till the end of the vacation period before anything happens. I'd hesitate to do much without their participation and blessing.
Regards, Erkki

comment:6 Changed 4 years ago by ryan.txanson@…

Magnificent, thanks! I can certainly wait!

Ryan

comment:7 Changed 4 years ago by mark

  • Component changed from data to data-plurals

comment:8 Changed 4 years ago by emmons

  • Milestone changed from 25dsub to 25rc

Moving all 25dsub and 25design tickets to 25rc. If you plan to complete items in the 25M1 time frame, please move those tickets to 25M1.

comment:9 Changed 4 years ago by mark

  • Milestone changed from 25rc to 26dsub

We need to get confirmation that there are only two plural categories even when pronouns are used to reference items.

For example, in English, "sheep" doesn't have a plural form, but changes referring pronouns.

I have 3 sheep. They are here.
I have 1 sheep. It is here.

So we need confirmation that there are no possible sentences or even series of sentences, where changing "2" to "3" requires some other change in the sentence.

For more, see:
http://cldr.unicode.org/index/cldr-spec/plural-rules#TOC-Minimal-pairs

comment:10 follow-up: ↓ 11 Changed 3 years ago by emmons

  • Milestone changed from 26dsub to 26dvet

Moving all 26dsub to 26dvet. Please assess the need to complete tickets by 26dvet, which is 2014-06-19

comment:11 in reply to: ↑ 10 Changed 3 years ago by eik@…

Replying to emmons:

Moving all 26dsub to 26dvet. Please assess the need to complete tickets by 26dvet, which is 2014-06-19

I'm asking again the Sámi experts to give the answer, which - I believe - they are prepared to do.

Incidentally, there are different plural rules that apply to Inari Śámi and Skolt Sámi (with apparently Slavic influence), which I have also requested.

Regards, Erkki

comment:12 Changed 3 years ago by mark

  • Milestone changed from 26dvet to 27dsub

Pushing this to v27, since we haven't heard back yet.

comment:13 Changed 3 years ago by eik@…

I've received the following info from Sámi Giellagáldu, which seems to support the decision made. I cannot force any more sopedcific information as of now, particularly since I personaly don't have any linguistic knowledge of the Sámi languiages.rjev

Eteläsaamen osalta seuraava vastaus tuli Joseph Fjellgreniltä:

There are two plural categories in south sami, called dual and plural. So when changing the number from "2" to "3" it does have an impact on the sentence.

sma
Mov 3 voelph. Dah leah daesnie. I have 3 friends. They (Plural form) are here
Mov 2 voelph. Dah guaktan lægan daesnie. I have 2 friend. They (dual form, two entities) are here.
Mov 1 voelpe. Dïhte lea daesnie. I have 1 friend. He/she is here.

North Sámi has singular, dual (humans if known persons, some animals) plural

Singular 1 pers. Áhčči lea ruovttus. Father is at home
Dual 1 pers. Áhčči ja eadni leaba ruovttus Father and mother are at home.
Plural 1 pers. Mii leat ruovttus. We are at home.

There are personal pronouns in singular, dual and plural and conjugation also has singular, dual and plural forms.

Singular 1 pers. Mun lean. I am
Dual 1. pers. Moai letne. We 2 are.
Plural 1 pers Mii leat.

Tarkempi sääntö olisi luotava.

Miina vastasi viestiini seuraavasti: Hei, en saanut kuin yhden vastauksen asiaan. En tiedä uskaltaako sen pohjalta sääntöä tehdä. Luulen, että asiaa pitäisi "hautoa" vähän kauemmin. Voin kyllä uusia kysymyksen ja katsoa, josko nyt saisin enemmän vastauksia.

Jään lomalle nyt ja olen lomalla 30.6 saakka, jonka jälkeen jatkan saamelaiskäräjillä 1.7 alkaen ainakin tämän vuoden loppuun.

Hyvää alkavaa kesää!

Ustitlaš dearvvuođaiguin/Ystävällisin terveisin/Med vänlig hälsning Marko Marjomaa

Marko Marjomaa
prošeaktahoavda/projektipäällikkö/projektchef
Sámi Giellagáldu

tel. + 358 504382484
Sámediggi/Saamelaiskäräjät
Sajos
FI-99870 Inari
marko.marjomaa(at)samediggi.fi

comment:14 Changed 3 years ago by markus

  • Phase set to dsub
  • Milestone changed from 27dsub to 27

comment:15 Changed 3 years ago by mark

  • Keywords working added
  • Priority changed from assess to medium

comment:16 Changed 3 years ago by mark

  • Keywords working removed
  • Milestone changed from 27 to 28

comment:17 Changed 3 years ago by markus

  • Type changed from defect to data

comment:18 Changed 2 years ago by srl

  • Status changed from assigned to accepted

comment:19 Changed 2 years ago by mark

  • Milestone changed from 28 to 29

After data submission, the priority for these drops, so moving to the start of the next cycle.

comment:20 Changed 2 years ago by emmons

  • Milestone changed from 29 to upcoming

Auto move of all 29 -> upcoming

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