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CLDR Ticket #6836(accepted data)

Opened 4 years ago

Last modified 2 years ago

Relative times should use a more natural format in Estonian

Reported by: illimar.tambek@… Owned by: pedberg
Component: main Data Locale: et
Phase: dsub Review:
Weeks: Data Xpath:
Xref:

Description

The current Date & Time -> Fields has some unnatural translations for estonian relative times. While they are grammatically correct, they are rarely actually used. I am proposing the following changes in order to make the result feel more natural. I also consulted with Estonian Language Institution about this matter.

Relative Year:

future-one | in {0} year   | current value: {0} aasta pärast | should be: ühe aasta pärast
past-one   | {0} year ago  | current value: {0} aasta eest   | should be: aasta tagasi
past-other | {0} years ago | current value: {0} aasta eest   | should be: {0} aastat tagasi

Relative Month:

future-one | in {0} month   | current value: {0} kuu pärast | should be: kuu aja pärast
past-one   | {0} month ago  | current value: {0} kuu eest   | should be: kuu aega tagasi
past-other | {0} months ago | current value: {0} kuu eest   | should be: {0} kuud tagasi

Relative Week:

future-one | in {0} week   | current value: {0} nädala pärast | should be: ühe nädala pärast
past-one   | {0} week ago  | current value: {0} nädala eest   | should be: nädal aega tagasi
past-other | {0} weeks ago | current value: {0} nädala eest   | should be: {0} nädalat tagasi

Relative Day:

future-one | in {0} day   | current value: {0} päeva pärast | should be: ühe päeva pärast
past-one   | {0} day ago  | current value: {0} päeva eest   | should be: üks päev tagasi
past-other | {0} days ago | current value: {0} päeva eest   | should be: {0} päeva tagasi

Relative Hour:

future-one | in {0} hour   | current value: {0} tunni pärast | should be: ühe tunni pärast
past-one   | {0} hour ago  | current value: {0} tunni eest   | should be: tund aega tagasi
past-other | {0} hours ago | current value: {0} tunni eest   | should be: {0} tundi tagasi

Relative Minute:

future-one | in {0} minute   | current value: {0} minuti pärast | should be: ühe minuti pärast
past-one   | {0} minute ago  | current value: {0} minuti eest   | should be: üks minut tagasi
past-other | {0} minutes ago | current value: {0} minuti eest   | should be: {0} minutit tagasi

Relative Second:

future-one | in {0} second   | current value: {0} sekundi pärast | should be: ühe sekundi pärast
past-one   | {0} second ago  | current value: {0} sekundi eest   | should be: üks sekund tagasi
past-other | {0} seconds ago | current value: {0} sekundi eest   | should be: {0} sekundit tagasi

Attachments

Change History

comment:1 Changed 4 years ago by kent.karlsson14@…

Note though that "one" (ühe/üks) is not spelled out in other locales for these items. The number placeholder ({0}) is used. In principle, the number placeholder could be replaced (by programs using CLDR data for this) with the RBNF number spellout (perhaps limited to "small" integer numbers) for the number.

Further, the translations with "aega" don't even say "one"; similar to "a week", actually "week-time", rather than "one week"/"1 week", etc.

Such translations aren't used for other locales, with a few exceptions that should be looked into.

comment:2 Changed 4 years ago by illimar.tambek@…

I completely understand the concerns raised by Kent, but I guess it's best to understand the goal of CLDR and localizations.

If the goal is to provide identical phrases/sentences in each language, without regard to natural language usage, then obviously my suggestions are not worth looking at.

If the goal is to provide as natural experience as possible, then I am almost sure you would agree (I am guessing you are an estonian yourself - based on yoru email), that "üks kuu tagasi" or "ühe kuu eest", is rarely used in conversations or even written estonian. My proposal is then based on the idea that we should provide locale data that does is not "directly translated", but rather carry the same meaning in a more natural way.

Also, something like "1 kuu eest" (with the actual number instead of spelling it out) is rarely used in written estonian. Phrases "üks kuu tagasi" are far more common.

comment:3 Changed 4 years ago by emmons

  • Owner changed from anybody to fredrik
  • Priority changed from assess to major
  • Status changed from new to assigned
  • Milestone changed from UNSCH to 25M1

We think is OK to make this change - need confirmation from Estonian vetters. If Apple can't find someone to confirm, then Google will try.

comment:4 Changed 4 years ago by dov

Here is the feedback from Google Estonian team:

"Agree that the proposed translation is more natural. But for example if we spell "ühe" out in "ühe aasta pärast" and leave the placeholder in "{0} aastat tagasi" then it causes inconsistency because in one phrase we write the number out with words and in the other, placeholder will replace it with a number. This is stylistically not so good. If the number placeholder can be replaced with a number spellout then this would be ok, but then these number spellouts would need to be declined so there might be problems with that. Therefore would suggest to leave as is."

comment:5 Changed 4 years ago by illimar.tambek@…

I guess "{0} aasta pärast" would be okay as well. But for example, "{0} kuu tagasi", is rarely used, whereas "kuu aega tagasi" is used quite often.

comment:6 Changed 4 years ago by emmons

  • Milestone changed from 25M1 to 25rc

comment:7 Changed 4 years ago by fredrik

  • Owner changed from fredrik to pedberg

Apple's vetter is fairly neutral to the suggestion, pointing out that the change is stylistic in nature and would like assurances that the change is carried out consistently throughout the data. Other than that there is no objection.

As a sidenote, removing the variable for the singular case should be fine since the current plural rules at http://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/latest/supplemental/language_plural_rules.html#et specify only the value of 1 to use the singular.

comment:8 Changed 4 years ago by pedberg

  • Milestone changed from 25rc to 26dsub

Needs more discussion.

comment:9 Changed 4 years ago by pedberg

  • Milestone changed from 26dsub to 26dvet

comment:10 Changed 3 years ago by pedberg

  • Milestone changed from 26dvet to 27dsub

comment:11 Changed 3 years ago by markus

  • Phase set to dsub
  • Milestone changed from 27dsub to 27

comment:12 Changed 3 years ago by pedberg

  • Milestone changed from 27 to 28

comment:13 Changed 3 years ago by pedberg

  • Milestone changed from 28 to 29

comment:14 Changed 3 years ago by markus

  • Type changed from enhancement to data

comment:15 Changed 3 years ago by srl

  • Status changed from assigned to accepted

comment:16 Changed 3 years ago by pikse@…

Not sure about replacing "eest" with "tagasi". I don't agree that "eest" variants are rarely used. As for one year I'd say that "(ühe) aasta eest" is more natural than "aasta tagasi". Neither do sound longer forms with word "aeg" better for relative months. As for plural cases there isn't much of a difference between "eest" and "tagasi". As for replacing "1" with word "one" I agree with Google's reply that this is good in some context but not always. In fact using a word may be preferred for numbers 2...10 too, but this apparently isn't an option here, so for consistency I'd leave 1 as it is as well.

comment:17 Changed 2 years ago by emmons

  • Milestone changed from 29 to upcoming

Automatic move of all 29 -> upcoming

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