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CLDR Ticket #8408(closed: as-designed)

Opened 4 years ago

Last modified 4 years ago

Variants of Tunisian Arabic

Reported by: Mjbmr <mjbmri@…> Owned by: anybody
Component: unknown Data Locale:
Phase: dsub Review:
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Description

Please add Latin and Arabic variants for Tunisian Arabic (aeb) in the language names list.

More info: https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/204503/

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comment:1 Changed 4 years ago by shervin

localeDisplayNames\languages is a list of languages and not flavors written or transcribed in various scripts; e.g. there's no "Serbian (Cyrillic)" in this list; there's just Serbian. And that list already has "Tunisian Arabic". The issue with localeDisplayNames\languages aside, although CLDR has data for some languages which are written in more than one scripts (e.g. sr and sr_Cyrl), but that criteria don't apply here as Tunisian Arabic written in Latin script seems as a arbitrary transcription scheme.

For example, I could not verify according to a credible source (e.g. Ethnologue, ScriptSource) that Tunisian Arabic has ever been written in Latin script. Also there is not any substantial evidence that writing Tunisian Arabic in Latin script is something common, legit, and acceptable. This seems like one of those controversial wiki issues.

comment:2 follow-up: ↓ 3 Changed 4 years ago by Mjbmr <mjbmri@…>

comment:3 in reply to: ↑ 2 Changed 4 years ago by shervin

Replying to Mjbmr <mjbmri@…>:

Please read: http://www.ethnologue.com/contribution/120466

And here's Ethnologue's response.

Last edited 4 years ago by shervin (previous) (diff)

comment:4 Changed 4 years ago by Mjbmr <mjbmri@…>

Replying to shervin:

Replying to Mjbmr <mjbmri@…>:

Please read: http://www.ethnologue.com/contribution/120466

I do not see any response from Ethnologue yet. Let's wait for their
response. Also, is there any wide-publication newspaper where Tunisian
Arabic is written in Latin script? I'm afraid this might be an invention
of a limited group of linguistic scholars. I will need to independently
research this issue. My recommendation at this point is not take any
actions on this until we hear from Ethnologue and do our own research.

I'm gonna ask the one who wrote that and that answer was not to him.

comment:5 Changed 4 years ago by shervin

  • Cc shervin added

comment:6 Changed 4 years ago by Mjbmr <mjbmri@…>

Here's the documentary:

Written by:
Houcemeddine Turki, B.Sc. Student, Faculty of Medicine of Sfax, University of Sfax, Sfax, Tunisia
Emad Adel, Self-Taught Linguist, Web Designer and Translator
Jihëd G. Mejrissi, League of Tunisian Humanists
Ahmed Saoudi, League of Tunisian Humanists
Reviewed by:
Mohamed Maâmouri, Ph.D., University of Pennsylvania, United States
Nizar Habash, Ph.D., New York University, United States
Ines Dallaji, Ph.D., University of Vienna, Austria
Karen McNeil, Ph.D., University of Virginia, United States

Abstract:
Based on some references about the Standardization and the romanisation of Tunisian, a standard method of transliteration of Tunisian is proposed because of the existence of a lack of adaptation of Arabic Letters to Computer Requirements and so that even people knowing Tunisian but have limited adaptation to Arabic Letters can be more familiar with using Latin Letters for that.

Link to the document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pKoVKMCvE54L4j9eEo0wc0w9gap8dwInGWmRiaqUt6M

comment:7 follow-up: ↓ 9 Changed 4 years ago by shervin

Based on available information (those provided here and checking other sources), we can not add a language variant of Tunisian Arabic written in Latin script. This is, as mentioned in these documents provided here, merely a transliteration/romanization model. You can see that CLDR already has some Arabic to Latin transliteration rules which is based on UN Romanization System for Geographical Names.

In case that it's of interest of you and the community behind this transliteration model, you can file a separate ticket to have it considered by CLDR technical committee to be added as a transliteration model. Before submitting, please read this page (specially this section) to ensure that the data provided is according to the criteria.

Last edited 4 years ago by shervin (previous) (diff)

comment:8 Changed 4 years ago by Mjbmr <mjbmri@…>

Alright then, Thank you.

comment:9 in reply to: ↑ 7 ; follow-up: ↓ 10 Changed 4 years ago by geekemad@…

Replying to shervin:

Based on available information (those provided here and checking other sources), we can not add a language variant of Tunisian Arabic written in Latin script. This is, as mentioned in these documents provided here, merely a transliteration/romanization model. You can see that CLDR already has some Arabic to Latin transliteration rules which is based on UN Romanization System for Geographical Names.

In case that it's of interest of you and the community behind this transliteration model, you can file a separate ticket to have it considered by CLDR technical committee to be added as a transliteration model. Before submitting, please read this page (specially this section) to ensure that the data provided is according to the criteria.

Tunisian is a spoken language, without a standardized form, our work is to standardize the writing. Tunisian has no official writing system, and claiming that Arabic is its writing method is misleading and false. Both, Arabic script and Latin are used, you can't find newspapers written in Tunisian, to know which one is more used. Though, people use a modified French alphabet on the Internet to chat and to express themselves, others use modified Arabic alphabet instead. Ethnologue is false about its claims. As a solution for the problem, Latin and Arabic can be added as variants of Tunisian Darija, until an official recognition by Tunisian government or universities of one of the writing methods.
Thanks.

comment:10 in reply to: ↑ 9 ; follow-up: ↓ 11 Changed 4 years ago by shervin

Replying to geekemad@…:

As a solution for the problem, Latin and Arabic can be added as variants of Tunisian Darija, until an official recognition by Tunisian government or universities of one of the writing methods.

No. It should be the other way around. You need to first work with your universities, organizations, and government. Whenever in future there is major publication (books, newspapers, etc.) and common acceptance for this (official recognition is not always necessary), we can add it as a language variant. Until then it's merely a transliteration scheme.

comment:11 in reply to: ↑ 10 Changed 4 years ago by geekemad@…

Replying to shervin:

Replying to geekemad@…:

As a solution for the problem, Latin and Arabic can be added as variants of Tunisian Darija, until an official recognition by Tunisian government or universities of one of the writing methods.

No. It should be the other way around. You need to first work with your universities, organizations, and government. Whenever in future there is major publication (books, newspapers, etc.) and common acceptance for this (official recognition is not always necessary), we can add it as a language variant. Until then it's merely a transliteration scheme.

And the same thing to Arabic script.

comment:12 Changed 4 years ago by emmons

  • Status changed from new to closed
  • Resolution set to as-designed

As Shervin pointed out, language + script combinations can be constructed and doesn't need to be explicitly specified in CLDR, unless a common English name for the combination exists.

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