RE: Glyphs for German quotation marks

From: Keutgen, Walter (walter.keutgen@be.unisys.com)
Date: Wed Jun 07 2006 - 13:57:21 CDT

  • Next message: Mike Ayers: "Re: Glyphs for German quotation marks"

    Philippe,
     
    there is no font face definition for your first example. I see everything in Time New Roman.
     
    When I look at the source - using Courier New at present - I see:
     
    <LI><FONT size=5>"Example"</FONT> Not nice, not "German"
    <LI><FONT size=5>"Example"</FONT>
    <LI><FONT size=5>"Example"</FONT>
    <LI><FONT size=5>"Example"</FONT> Not nice, any language?

     
    and this is Verdana:
     
    "Example" Same as above, but small angle makes it less shocking
    "Example"
    "Example"
    "Example"
     
    and this is Arial:
     
    "Example" Arial has no problem, because it has vertical curly quotes as Times New Roman
    "Example"
    "Example"
    "Example"
     
    and this is Times New Roman
     
    "Example"
    "Example"
    "Example"
    "Example"
     
    So indeed for German, when one switches font, one must be careful and see whether the character used for closing a quotation must not be changed. It is not a design fault of an individual font but the designer's choice to make the quotes oblique. I think that those who do typesetting - pardon DTP - will care about taking the correct character from the begin and will not change the font in the middle of the work. They must be careful and have adequate system support if they mix fonts. CLDR is useless for such professionals.
     
    When publishing in HTML leaving the font choice to the reader, one should stick to the straight fallback quotes and apostrophes which are acceptable for all - so did the typewriters - and require nothing more than the standard keyboard for generation.
     
    Interested people receiving this e-mail in plain text should cut and paste it into a word processor and apply these fonts or/and similar ones to SEE what happens.
     
    I still owe an e-mail after comparison of printed media. I hope I have time this weekend.
     
    Best regards

    Walter Keutgen

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            From: unicode-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:unicode-bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf Of Philippe Verdy
            Sent: Wednesday, 07 June 2006 19:50
            To: Andreas Prilop; unicode@unicode.org
            Subject: Re: Glyphs for German quotation marks
            
            
            Using Verdana, it works. Choose your option:

            * "Example"
            * "Example"
            * "Example"
            * "Example"
            * « Example »
            * »Example«

            And, exactly the same text with Times New Roman:

            * "Example"
            * "Example"
            * "Example"
            * "Example"
            * « Example »
            * »Example«

            What's wrong there? Nothing. It's standard Unicode, and the way Verdana renders these quotation marks are correct. So choose the characters according to the locale.
             
            Note that Unicode does not indicate the role of characters in every locale. The normative name for characters is not a normative use for all languages...
             
            We don't need ophtalmologists,and we don't need tweaked fonts specialized for particular locales that will mirror and change the position of type of glyph used.
             
            Unicode admits that different characters are used for quotation marks depending on languages. And that's why the CLDR contains resources for selecting the correct character to use for each locale.
             
            Philippe.
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Andreas Prilop" <nhtcapri@rrzn-user.uni-hannover.de <mailto:nhtcapri@rrzn-user.uni-hannover.de> >
            To: <unicode@unicode.org <mailto:unicode@unicode.org> >
            Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 2:20 PM
            Subject: Re: Glyphs for German quotation marks
            
            
    > On Sun, 04 Jun 2006, Adam Twardoch wrote:
    >
    >> I don't see anything wrong with using Verdana
    >> quotation marks as they are for German or Polish.
    >
    > Please consult an ophthalmologist.
    >
    > http://www.heckmeck.de/computerstuff/anfzeichen/anf_verdana_de.png <http://www.heckmeck.de/computerstuff/anfzeichen/anf_verdana_de.png>
    >
    >
    >
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