From: koxinga (koxinga@wanadoo.fr)
Date: Tue Jan 13 2009 - 18:08:02 CST
> Message du 08/01/09 00:01
> De : "John H. Jenkins" <jenkins@apple.com>
> A : "Unicode List" <unicode@unicode.org>
> Copie à :
> Objet : Re: Unihan : Traditional characters having two simplified equivalents
>
>
> There isn't a detailed explanation anywhere of how this was done, I'm
> afraid. This data is largely derived from data donated to Unicode by
> Wenlin, Inc., and they would probably be the best ones to contact to
> get information on how these specific instances were generated in the
> first place.
>
> Meanwhile, if you have a reliable source that indicates that we have
> mapping information which is wrong or incomplete, you can report it to
> us and we'll take the appropriate action.
>
> Meanwhile, looking over the instances you cite, it looks like some of
> these are simply wrong. For example, the mapping between 鯰 and 鲇,
> does appear to be relying on synonyms and should probably not be
> included in the Unihan database as an instance of simplification.
>
Hello !
I do think some of these traditional/simplified links are wrong. Right now we have :
瀋 -> 沈, 渖
鍾 -> 钟, 锺
餘 -> 馀, 余
靦 -> 䩄, 腼
畫 -> 划, 画
鯰 -> 鲇, 鲶
鹼 -> 硷, 碱
I think we should have :
瀋 -> 沈
鍾 -> 钟
餘 -> 馀, 余
靦 -> 䩄
畫 -> 画
鯰 -> 鲶
鹼 -> 硷
I don't know exactly what information you need, so I tried to explain what I found in the dictionaries. I know some chinese but it is not good enough to have a good grip on this kind of characters. It is rather a logic game, where I try to find some coherence between the different references.
The references I used are :
* 新华字典 (http://www.amazon.cn/mn/detailApp?qid=1231885393&ref=SR&sr=13-1&uid=168-0869207-4239414&prodid=zjbk750301
* the scans of the 中华字海 I found on the Internet (http://www.rendao.com/)
* The dictionary of variants compiled by the Ministry of Education of the Taiwan Government (http://dict.variants.moe.edu.tw)
* The table of simplifications given by http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/简化字总
* 新世纪汉英大词典 (doesn't give the traditional characters, but is very complete).
I didn't write all references because I just copied what I had already written. If you want more complete references, just ask.
==瀋 -> 沈, 渖==
The normal simplification is 沈, given by 新华字典 and 中华字海
It is a "one character" simplification (as opposed to an "implied by rule" simplification) given in the tables of 简化字总表.
The simplification 審 -> 审 is also given as a rule for other composed characters (嬸 -> 婶) but the "one character" simplification should replace it.
==鍾 -> 钟, 锺==
The same case as the above character. 鍾 -> 锺 is implied by the rules but 鍾 -> 钟 is explicitely stated and is the only form given in the dictionaries I could find.
==餘 -> 馀, 余==
This one is the only one I have seen clearly stated in other places than Unihan. 餘 -> 余 is the normal one, but 馀 may be used when the use of 余 as the simplified form of 餘 creates ambiguities with the already existant character 余.
==靦 -> 䩄, 腼==
䩄 would be the normal simplification of 靦, according to the 見->见 rule simplification. It is the one used in the 新华字典. The 中华字海 gives (http://www.rendao.com/gif/1593.gif) : “䩄:‘靦’的类推简化字”
The dictionaries also give 腼腆 as a synonym for 腼腆, but there is no simplification 靦->腼 given in the tables.
==畫 -> 划, 画==
The dictionaries and the conversion table give 劃 -> 划, 畫 -> 画.
劃 is given as a synonym for 画, which was a existing character before the simplification, but I don't see where the simplification 畫 -> 画 comes from.
==鯰 -> 鲇, 鲶==
魚->鱼 is a simplification rule which gave 鯰 -> 鲶 and 鮎 -> 鲇. 鲶 and 鲇 are synonyms but no mention of a special simplification.
==鹼 -> 硷, 碱==
鹼 -> 硷 is a simplification mentioned in the tables. 硷 and 碱 are given as synonyms in the 新华字典. 碱 does not seem to be a simplified form but does not appear on the Kangxi. It is considered as a variant of 鹼 in the http://dict.variants.moe.edu.tw. I asked a native speaker (my chinese girlfriend), who told me 碱 was more common than 硷.
regards,
Koxinga
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