From: Maher Alnubani (maher.al-nubani@oracle.com)
Date: Fri Mar 05 2010 - 17:45:54 CST
On 3/5/2010 2:11 PM, CE Whitehead wrote:
> Hi, thanks very much. You did answer my questions. I still have one
> more question: would any literate Arabic speaker always type the
> tanween al-fatah logically after the aleph seat?
Yes.
> (Because of course the tanween al-fatah, unlike Arabic vowel
> diacritics elsewhere, should precede the aleph consonant seat in a
> visual display and not follow it--that is, in an rtl context, it
> should be displayed slightly to the right of the aleph--that is how I
> was taught and indeed how it appears in the combined character in the
> Unicode extended characters, and indeed that is how it appears when I
> type it in following the aleph [and of course, it appears this way
> when I type it in before too].)
Well, TANWEEN AL-FATH normally appears on top of the ALEF (or the TAH
MARBUTAH) not before or after it. But, in standard Arabic writing
TANWEEN is the last thing to write in a word.
>
> I also added a few notes below.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:14:40 -0800
> From: maher.al-nubani@oracle.com
> To: cewcathar@hotmail.com
> CC: unicode@unicode.org; ntounsi@gmail.com; rm459@cam.ac.uk;
> prilop4321@trashmail.net
> Subject: Re: Arabic aleph representation of glyphs
>
> > I hope I was able to answer your questions. Please see my comments
> below.
> Thanks.
> On 3/4/2010 5:16 PM, CE Whitehead wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi! The chart you provided had two parts: first the Arabic
> alphabet; second, the vowel diacritics, not alone, but in the
> company of consonants.
>
> So for someone learning Arabic letters the link you sent has some
> use.
>
> (I wish I could say it helped me with unicode characters; I see
> that there are some combining characters represented in the
> Presentation Forms at the Unicode code charts, and those are what
> I wanted I think.
>
> But for anyone learning Arabic also here's a link I found where
> you can learn about why certain characters have different glyphs:
> http://www.abjad.com/pyramid.htm there is also:
> http://www.funwitharabic.com/alphabet.html where you can meet the
> characters in order, and there is a song too)
>
> However, what I was trying to ask about was primarily a display
> question perhaps.
>
> BACKGROUND:
>
> There are versions of the Arabic vowel diacritics associated with
> the indefinite case endings, which actually consist of the short
> vowel plus the -n sound at the end, and these come only at the end
> of words--and in fact, only at the end of words that are
> 'indefinite' or 'not determined' by the article 'al.'
>
> You don't have to write the diacritics in Arabic, only the
> consonants (so these diacritics are secondary and more like accent
> marks and such in Latin-1). The problem comes with the indefinite
> accusative however, fathatan,
> because you have to insert an unspoken/not-pronounced alef as a
> seat for the diacritic and the alif has to be written of course.
>
> (Similarly, there is a 'consonant,' the hamza it is called, which
> is the glottal stop, that often takes a seat; unlike the seated
> fathatan diacritic for the accusative indefinite -- the seated
> hamzas are represented in the primary characters chart at:
> http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0600.pdf
>
> You can have the hamza alone and also represented with different
> seats: 0621-0626 -- although one of these characters actually
> involves a suppressed hamza -- or whatever [the hamza is
> suppressed when it comes between two vowels; I think I've got this
> right?] for 0622 [is this right?].
>
> This group might actually be considered to consist of combined
> characters since all but 0621 include both a diacritic and a
> character seat for it.
>
> The vowel diacritics are represented here in isolation, also on
> this page but not with seats.
>
> You represent the vowel diacritic fathatan with aleph [or
> alternately it's written alif] elsewhere in the supplements
> [Presentation Forms-A] and the hamza diacritics as well
> [Presentation Forms-B].
>
> [On the main page again, see 0627 - 064A for the primary
> consonants if you want those; those are the characters that have
> to be typed, that I consider primary.])
>
> But of course the only time the inflectional ending needs a seat
> is when it is in the accusative case; otherwise it is just a
> diacritic at word's end!
>
> * * *
> Now . . . for my questions:
>
> (1), The logical typing order for the vowel diacritic for sure is
> normally first the consonant seat and then the vowel
> diacritic--although the vowel diacritic appears above or below the
> consonant and not in rtl order.
>
> However, at the end of the word, with the inflectional ending, you
> don't have alternate ways of writing the vowel and its character
> seat; so whether you type the vowel diacritic before or after the
> alif that serves as a seat, there should be only one display
> possibility as far as I can think (I may be wrong).
>
> But my browser (IE) displays the vowel-aleph combo differently
> depending on typing order -- and I don't think it should in this
> case since this diacritic is an end of word character -- someone
> straighten me out on this. I'm sending the attachment again
> (renamed because the name was confusing because I call this a
> double vowel diacritic because there are two slashes and not one
> but it's not really a doubled vowel): on the attachment, you can
> see the characters together and the two different typing orders.
>
> (Maybe typing order matters?--someone correct me.)
>
>
> > Yes, logical typing order does affect the visual display. Generally,
> Tanween Al-FATH (what you called fathatan) would be > the last thing
> typed in a word. If you type it before the Alef, the renderer would
> super impose it on the previous letter not > the Alef.
>
> me] Yes, normally for me the diacritic would be typed after the
> consonant seat; I guess I sometimes type tanween al-fath before the
> consonant seat because in this case the diacritic (tanween al-fath)
> should appear to be slighlty preceding--that is to the right of in an
> rtl context--the aleph seat. However, from what you say my typing the
> characters in this order is an error (and would mess up
> line-breaking). (Thus are you saying that any literate Arabic speaker
> would always type the tanween al-fath last? Also it is my
> understanding that the tanween character is only used at the end of a
> word, as an inflectional ending that indicates a noun or adjective is
> indefinite, and belonging to a particular case; thus it would be
> bizarre to associate the tanween al-fath with a character that
> preceded the aleph.)
>
> * * *
> (2), Also, further down in my attached page, the tah-marbutah is
> an end-of-word character, and I expected it to turn into an
> ordinary tah when I added an inflectional ending since in Arabic
> an ordinary tah must precede the inflectional ending; but the
> character remained a tah-marbutah; you can add inflectional
> endings to it and so I am wondering: shouldn't it display like an
> ordinary tah when there is an inflectional ending afterwards? (Do
> you code it as in someway an allo-glyph of tah?)
>
>
> > As you stated, Tah-Marbutah is an end-of-word character, and is a
> different letter from the Tah. Tanween vowels (what > you call
> inflectional ending) would super impose on it the same way they would
> on the Alef for Tanween Fateh. But, you
> > do not need to add an Alef for Tanween Al-Fateh when a word
> (normally a noun) ends with Tah-Marbutah.
>
> Displaying it like tah before an inflectional ending would look
> Arabic. (Someone is going to argue with me and say that I should
> have typed a tah and not a tah-marbutah anyway before the
> inflectional ending but I would first type the word, then the
> tah-marbuta, then perhaps later add in my voweling.)
>
> > Again, Tah Marbutah letter and Tah letter are two different letters.
> Maybe you are confusing it with the Ha letter. Ha at
> > the end of the word would look like the Tah marbutah but without the
> two dots above. When you add a letter after the
> > Ha, the Ha would connect to it. In Arabic, however, you would never
> find a word that ends with a Ha and at the same
> > time have a Tanween ending. When Ha connects to a name, it makes it
> a definite name (similar to adding AL). Definite
> > names wound not accept Tanween as an ending.
>
> My mistake; sorry! But for some reason I have harbored a view
> that tah-marbutah is an alternate form of tah, which appears at the
> end of a feminine noun or an adjective in the feminine, but before the
> inflectional/tanween ending -- because (according to the Arabic I
> learned; hope I learned right) tah-marbutah is pronounced like a tah
> once the inflectional ending is added (I just looked this up and this
> is the reason for the name tah-marbutah but there is no association
> with tah or ha; and I suppose that the inflectional endings are often
> dropped in speaking so that the tah-marbutah is not pronounced as a
> tah often: I don't pronounce correctly anyway). My mistake again in
> saying I would still need the aleph seat for the tanween al-fath.
>
>
> Thanks again for your info.
>
> Best,
>
> C. E. Whitehead
> cewcathar@hotmail.com <mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 18:56:41 +0100
> > From: prilop4321@trashmail.net <mailto:prilop4321@trashmail.net>
> > To: unicode@unicode.org <mailto:unicode@unicode.org>
> > CC: cewcathar@hotmail.com <mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: Arabic aleph representation of glyphs
> >
> > Dear CE Whitehead:
> >
> > Your messages are confusing and I don't really understand
> > what you mean and what you want.
> >
> > But have a look at
> > http://www.user.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/arabic-alphabet.html
> > Perhaps this page will help you understanding the Arabic script
> > in Unicode.
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ًا
>
> 064B 0627
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> اً
>
> 0627 064B
>
> ﴼ
>
> FD3C
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ABOVE: the aleph with the double (for an indeterminate ending)
> fatah diacritic, varying logical order; followed by the
> presentation form.
>
>
> BELOW: the tah marbuta connected to a following aleph with
> double fatah diacritic, varying logical order for the aleph
> and fatah diacritic.
>
> ةًا
>
> 0629 064B 0627
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ةاً
>
> 0629 0627 064B
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Note: as you can see, everything displays as it should regardless
> of when/where you type the vowel diacritic logically--except the
> change in logical order should not, in my opinion, change the
> display appearance in any wayl; also if you have any problems with
> the display all you need to do is add a meta tag stating the
> document character set; I think it's o.k. though as it's actually
> encoded ansi and I put in numbers of course. In any case, you may
> wish to check this display in different browsers--I'm not sure
> what's making the two orderings display differently--something
> about the unicode characters or something to do with the browser
> implementation? Thanks.
>
>
> Below: Character Input Order Sometimes Does Matter; It
> Suppresses Display Altogether
>
> darrasa 'to teach'
>
> دَرَّسَ
>
> دَرَّسَ
>
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