Re: Joined "ti" coded as "Ɵ" in PDF
dzo at bisharat.net
Sat Mar 19 12:52:30 CDT 2016
Thanks Andrew, Looking at the issue of ToUnicode mapping you mention,
why in the 1-many mapping of ligatures (for fonts that have them) do the
"many" not simply consist of the characters ligated? Maybe that's too
simple (my understanding of the process is clearly inadequate).
The "string of random ASCII characters" (per Leonardo) used in the
Identity H system for hanzi raise other questions: (1) How are the ASCII
characters interpreted as a 1-many sequence representing a hanzi rather
than just a series of 1-1 mappings of themselves? (2) Why not just use
the Unicode code point?
The details may or may not be relevant to the list topic, but as a user
of documents in PDF format, I fail to see the benefit of such obscure
mappings. And as a creator of PDFs ("save as") looking at others' PDFs
I've just encountered with these mappings, I'm wondering how these
concerned about how the font & mapping results turned out as they did.
It is certain that the creators of the documents didn't intend results
that would not be searchable by normal text, but it seems possible their
a particular font choice with these ligatures unwittingly produced these
results. If the latter, the software at the very least should show a
caveat about such mappings when generating PDFs.
Maybe it's unrealistic to expect a simple implication of Unicode in PDFs
(a topic we've discussed before but which I admit not fully grasping).
Recalling I once had some wild results copy/pasting from an N'Ko PDF,
and ended up having to obtain the .docx original to obtain text for
insertion in a blog posting. But while it's not unsurprising to
encounter issues with complex non-Latin scripts from PDFs, I'd gotten to
expect predictability when dealing with most Latin text.
On 3/17/2016 7:34 PM, Andrew Cunningham wrote:
> There are a few things going on.
> In the first instance, it may be the font itself that is the source of
> the problem.
> My understanding is that PDF files contain a sequence of glyphs. A PDF
> file will contain a ToUnicode mapping between glyphs and codepoints.
> This iseither a 1-1 mapping or a 1-many mapping. The 1-many mapping
> provides support for ligatures and variation sequences.
> I assume it uses the data in the font's cmap table. If the ligature
> isn't mapped then you will have problems. I guess the problem could
> be either the font or the font subsetting and embedding performed when
> the PDF is generated.
> Although, it is worth noting that in opentype fonts not all glyphs
> will have mappings in the cmap file.
> The remedy, is to extensively tag the PDF and add ActualText
> attributes to the tags.
> But the PDF specs leave it up to the developer to decide what happens
> in there is both a visible text layer and ActualText. So even in an
> ideal PDF, tesults will vary from software to software when copying
> text or searching a PDF.
> At least thatsmy current understanding.
> On 18 Mar 2016 7:47 am, "Don Osborn" <dzo at bisharat.net
> <mailto:dzo at bisharat.net>> wrote:
> Thanks all for the feedback.
> Doug, It may well be my clipboard (running Windows 7 on this
> particular laptop). Get same results pasting into Word and EmEditor.
> So, when I did a web search on "internaƟonal," as previously
> mentioned, and come up with a lot of results (mostly PDFs), were
> those also a consequence of many not fully Unicode compliant
> conversions by others?
> A web search on what you came up with - "Internaonal" - yielded
> many more (82k+) results, again mostly PDFs, with terms like
> "interna onal" (such as what Steve noted) and "interna<onal" and
> perhaps others (given the nature of, or how Google interprets, the
> private use character?).
> Searching within the PDF document already mentioned,
> "international" comes up with nothing (which is a major fail as
> far as usability). Searching the PDF in a Firefox browser window,
> only "internaƟonal" finds the occurrences of what displays as
> "international." However after downloading the document and
> searching it in Acrobat, only a search for "internaonal" will
> find what displays as "international."
> A separate web search on "Eīects" came up with 300+ results,
> including some GoogleBooks which in the texts display "effects"
> (as far as I checked). So this is not limited to Adobe?
> Jörg, With regard to "Identity H," a quick search gives the
> impression that this encoding has had a fairly wide and not so
> happy impact, even if on the surface level it may have facilitated
> display in a particular style of font in ways that no one
> complains about.
> Altogether a mess, from my limited encounter with it. There must
> have been a good reason for or saving grace of this solution?
> On 3/17/2016 2:17 PM, Steve Swales wrote:
> Yes, it seems like your mileage varies with the PDF
> viewer/interpreter/converter. Text copied from Preview on the
> Mac replaces the ti ligature with a space. Certainly not a
> Unicode problem, per se, but an interesting problem nevertheless.
> On Mar 17, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Doug Ewell <doug at ewellic.org
> <mailto:doug at ewellic.org>> wrote:
> Don Osborn wrote:
> Odd result when copy/pasting text from a PDF: For some
> reason "ti" in
> the (English) text of the document at
> is coded as "Ɵ". Looking more closely at the original
> text, it does
> appear that the glyph is a "ti" ligature (which afaik
> is not coded as
> such in Unicode).
> When I copy and paste the PDF text in question into
> BabelPad, I get:
> Internaonal Order and the Distribuon of Identy
> in 1950 (By
> invitaon only)
> The "ti" ligatures are implemented as U+10019F, a Plane 16
> Truncating this character to 16 bits, which is a Bad
> Thing™, yields
> U+019F LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O WITH MIDDLE TILDE. So it
> looks like either
> Don's clipboard or the editor he pasted it into is not fully
> Don's point about using alternative characters to
> implement ligatures,
> thereby messing up web searches, remains valid.
> Doug Ewell | http://ewellic.org | Thornton, CO
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