Accumulated Feedback on PRI #352

This page is a compilation of formal public feedback received so far. See Feedback for further information on this issue, how to discuss it, and how to provide feedback.

Date/Time: Tue Jun 6 19:50:06 CDT 2017
Name: Peter Constable
Report Type: Feedback on an Encoding Proposal
Opt Subject: Latin Extended-D addition in PDAM 1.3

In the PDAM 1.3 charts (WG2 doc number N4824), A7AF LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL Q 
is added to the Latin Extended-D block with a section heading, "Letter for 
representation of phoneme in Japanese". That heading is not really appropriate: 
as described in the original proposal (L2/15-241), the character is used in 
Japanese phonemic transcription to denote gemination of the following obstruent. 
(E.g., /Qt/ to represent /tː/.) So, it's not representing a phoneme but rather 
is used like a modifier used in representation of several phonemes.

A better heading would be "Letter for Japanese linguistics" or "Letter for 
Japanese phonemic transcription". 

I would also add a usage annotation for the character, "used to represent 
gemination in Japanese phonetic transcription", or simply "gemination".

Date/Time: Fri Jun 9 18:20:20 CDT 2017
Name: Ken Lunde
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #352 Feedback

On page two of WG2 N4824, the referenced document for "1D360-1D37F Counting 
Rod Numerals" should be changed from L2/15-328 to the two documents L2/16-046 
and L2/16-065.

Date/Time: Wed Jun 14 09:24:09 CDT 2017
Name: David Corbett
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #352: Editorial and minor technical comments

In Armenian, the heading “Small letters” is inconsistent with the existing
heading “Lowercase letters”. Also, consider mentioning in the heading that
these characters are letters for phonetic notation.

U+0A76 GURMUKHI ABBREVIATION SIGN does not belong under the heading “Gurmukhi-
specific additions” as it is analogous to the abbreviation signs in other
Indic scripts.

U+2BDE BLACK DIAMOND ON CROSS should have an annotation “True Black Moon
Lilith” to clarify what astrological symbol it is.

“Russian Astrological aspects” should be Russian astrological aspects”.

The note for U+2BF6 RUSSIAN ASTROLOGICAL SYMBOL BINOVILE says “the letters N²”
but ⟨²⟩ is not a letter. A similar problem is true of U+2BF8.

The chess symbols U+2BFA through U+2BFD all have annotations that are similar
to the character name but with the word “pawn” added. Consider adding “PAWN”
to the character names instead, i.e. UNITED PAWNS SYMBOL, SEPARATED PAWNS
SYMBOL, DOUBLED PAWNS SYMBOL, and PASSED PAWN SYMBOL. That would make it
clearer what these symbols mean, since they do not symbolize unity,
separation, etc. in general.

The note “not used at present” for U+10D1C HANIFI ROHINGYA LETTER VA is vague.
The letter “was not used widely and its usage has been discontinued” and the
note should say so.

Date/Time: Wed Jun 14 10:45:56 CDT 2017
Name: David Corbett
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #352: OLD SOGDIAN LETTER FINAL SADHE WITH VERTICAL TAIL

The proposal document for Old Sogdian says “In AL 2, sadhe has the shape ⸦FINAL 
SADHE WITH VERTICAL TAIL⸧ whenever it occurs at the margin[...]. In other 
positions within a line, final sadhe is written using ⸦FINAL SADHE⸧”. Since 
these two glyphs are in predictable complementary distribution and represent 
the same character, it is not necessary to encode both. Cf. some styles of 
Latin, where swash glyphs are used at the margins but are not encoded distinctly.

Date/Time: Fri Jun 16 04:27:54 CDT 2017
Name: Otto Stolz
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: L2/17-190 Additional repertoire for ISO/IEC 10646:2017 (5th ed.) Amendment 1.3

In the Chakma chart on p. 84, the glyphs of both U+11145 and U+11146 do not fit in 
their respective table cells. Consider to move the dotted circle to the left of the 
cell to make more room for sayed diacritica.

In case this is a mere rendering issue: I am using Firefox 53.0.3, Adobe Acrobat 
Reader 2017.009.20044, and Windows 7 SP 1.

Date/Time: Fri Jun 16 14:55:18 CDT 2017
Name: David Corbett
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #352: Code point order for Old Sogdian final letters

The PDAM puts the Old Sogdian final letters after their nonfinal counterparts. However, 
in the other scripts with separately encoded final forms (i.e. Greek, Hebrew, Palmyrene, 
and Nabataean) the final letter has the lower code point. Old Sogdian should follow 
the pattern; for example, TAW, FINAL TAW, and FINAL TAW WITH VERTICAL TAIL should 
be reordered to FINAL TAW, FINAL TAW WITH VERTICAL TAIL, and TAW.

Date/Time: Fri Jun 16 17:13:11 CDT 2017
Name: Eduardo Marin Silva
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: Incorrect Hebrew heading

The newly added Hebrew Yod triangle is not a letter, but a symbol so the heading 
should reflect that or at least call it a sign.

Date/Time: Sun Jun 25 20:35:21 CDT 2017
Name: Eduardo Marin Silva
Report Type: Feedback on an Encoding Proposal
Opt Subject: Kithan iteration mark info

Since it is punctuation it would not be obvious to users that the character can 
be used in cluster formation, so an informative note should be added to 18CDF 
saying "Can be used in cluster formation"

Date/Time: Mon Jun 26 10:46:03 CDT 2017
Name: Srinidhi A and Sridatta A
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #352 COMBINING BINDU BELOW

In L2/17-190 PDAM 1.3 charts annotates 1133B COMBINING BINDU BELOW as 
• used as nukta for Badaga.

However the original proposal L2/15-256 mentions the use of nukta for 
Chetti, Jenu Kurumba, Betta Kurumba and double nukta for Irula in Tamil script.
Remove *used as nukta for Badaga and update the Code chart accordingly.

Date/Time: Mon Jul 17 13:03:19 CDT 2017
Name: David Corbett
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #352: GROUP MARK vs. TRIPLE DAGGER

L2/15-083 describes two obsolete I/O symbols, the record mark and the 
group mark. The record mark looks like a double dagger, so it was not 
proposed for encoding. The group mark looks like a triple dagger, which 
is not in Unicode, so the group mark was proposed for encoding. That 
is, the proposal unified these I/O symbols with similar-looking daggers.

This unification should apply to both or neither. Either there should 
be two characters: U+2021 (double dagger and record mark) and U+2BD2 
(triple dagger and group mark); or there should be four characters: 
U+2021 DOUBLE DAGGER, U+2E4B TRIPLE DAGGER, U+???? RECORD MARK, and 
U+2BD2 GROUP MARK. Unifying the two double-horizontal-line characters 
but disunifying the two triple-horizontal-line characters does not 
make sense.

U+2E4B TRIPLE DAGGER should be removed from the PDAM until an explicit 
decision is made about RECORD MARK.

Date/Time: Mon Jul 17 13:42:04 CDT 2017
Name: David Corbett
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #352: Indic Siyaq Numbers block note formatting

The block note for Indic Siyaq Numbers says “The Indic Siyaq Numbers are also 
known as 'Raqm' or 'Rakam' numbers.” Other block notes (search in the PDAM 
for “also known as”) do not put quotation marks around the alternative names. 
For consistency, “'Raqm' or 'Rakam'” should be “Raqm or Rakam”.

Date/Time: Mon Jul 24 16:51:46 CDT 2017
Name: Marcel Schneider
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #352: 058C ARMENIAN SMALL LETTER YI WITH STROKE

058C ARMENIAN SMALL LETTER YI WITH STROKE has been given a name using “WITH
STROKE” by imitation of misnamed Latin letters the proposal refers to: “LATIN
SMALL LETTER J WITH STROKE (U+0249) or LATIN SMALL LETTER DOTLESS J WITH
STROKE (U+025F)”.

It is striking how a number of Latin letters have been obviously misnamed:
0246	LATIN CAPITAL LETTER E WITH STROKE
0247	LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH STROKE
0248	LATIN CAPITAL LETTER J WITH STROKE
0249	LATIN SMALL LETTER J WITH STROKE

Although these are closely encoded and their glyphs next to each other, and
the E has an oblique overlay line while the J has a horizontal overlay line,
they have been given the same diacritic in their name. Thus the latter two
characters are misnamed.

Even the combining horizontal diacritics are misnamed:
0335	COMBINING SHORT STROKE OVERLAY
0336	COMBINING LONG STROKE OVERLAY
# These are actually bars, not strokes.
0337	COMBINING SHORT SOLIDUS OVERLAY
	= short slash overlay
0338	COMBINING LONG SOLIDUS OVERLAY
	= long slash overlay
# These are well-named.

Primarily the scheme was clear, as exemplified with Latin letter L:
00D8	LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O WITH STROKE
00F8	LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH STROKE
# This is the paradigm of a letter with a stroke, i.e. an oblique overlay line.
023D	LATIN CAPITAL LETTER L WITH BAR
019A	LATIN SMALL LETTER L WITH BAR
# These have a horizontal overlay line.
0141	LATIN CAPITAL LETTER L WITH STROKE
0142	LATIN SMALL LETTER L WITH STROKE
# These have an oblique overlay line.

Nevertheless, a number of letters are inconsistently named:
0244	LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U BAR
0289	LATIN SMALL LETTER U BAR
# These are rather well named, as they have a horizontal overlay line. 
# Though, the preposition WITH is missing, disrupting thus a consistent 
# practice enforced by ISO at merger (given that Unicode 1.0 names donʼt 
# use WITH to connect diacritics).
1D7E	LATIN SMALL CAPITAL LETTER U WITH STROKE
# This has actually a horizontal overlay line and *could be* the small cap of 0244 
# while not actually mapped to it.

Conclusion: The Armenian script has no precedent of letters with a diacritic
in their name, although such are currently found, e.g. in the currency symbol:
058F ֏ ARMENIAN DRAM SIGN, that is double-barred. Armenian could wish to avoid
following bad practice of character naming in Latin script, and to use
accurate descriptors instead. At this stage, name changes are still
actionable.

Suggested name: 
058C ARMENIAN SMALL LETTER YI WITH BAR

Date/Time: Mon Jul 24 18:05:17 CDT 2017
Name: Marcel Schneider
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #352: 05EF HEBREW YOD TRIANGLE

The proposal to encode 05EF HEBREW YOD TRIANGLE shows that this character
represents the Holy Tetragram. Consisting of a triple letter, it cannot be
classified as a “letter”. Nor is it a ligature or an actual trigram, given the
semi-stacked array. Hence it could be referred to as a logogram, in accordance
with its meaning of a placeholder for the Name of God.

This has two consequences.

The first consequence is that this new character can have the word “LOGOGRAM”
in its name. This is important because every single character in the Hebrew
block has its category in its name. All names in this block follow the
pattern: /HEBREW (?|ACCENT|LETTER|LIGATURE|MARK|POINT|PUNCTUATION) .+/;

The lack of the category in the name of HEBREW YOD TRIANGLE may have resultad
from its not being a single letter, nor a ligature, so it doesnʼt match any of
the already existing categories, and was thus left uncategorized in its name.

The problem is that this lack of a category in the name may be interpreted in
two opposite ways:  Ⓐ It underscores the singularity of the character; or  Ⓑ
it expresses some lack of respectfulness and conveys a connotation at the
antipodes of the intended achievement of enabling Hebrew users to typeset a
placeholder for the Holy Name.

At this stage, name changes are still actionable.

Suggested character name for U+05EF: HEBREW LOGOGRAM YOD TRIANGLE

The second consequence is a suggestion to change the subheading from “Hebrew
letter” to _Logogram_.

As of the spelling “logogram” vs. “logograph”, the former is consistent with
“Tetragram” (and with the Meroitic Cursive logograms already encoded at
U+109BE and U+109BF; see also the Vai “Logogram” subheading; moreover it seems
that the preferred spelling has moved from “logograph” to “logogram”; for
“logograph” cf. the Tai Tham and Pahaw Hmong “Logograph” subheadings in the
Code Charts).

Date/Time: Mon Jul 24 19:03:02 CDT 2017
Name: Marcel Schneider
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #352: 09FE BENGALI SANDHI MARK

The encoding proposal for 09FE BENGALI SANDHI MARK refers to 111C9 SHARADA
SANDHI MARK. This brings up the necessity of reviewing the subheadings in
order to harmonize them inside the Standard for internal consistency.

The SHARADA SANDHI MARK has its scalar value preceded by those of danda and
double danda, an abbreviation sign and a separator, and shares the common
subheading “Punctuation”, whereas the BENGALI SANDHI MARK is placed under a
generic subheading “Signs”, even though it is preceded by the abbreviation
sign, as is its Sharada counterpart.

What hinders the subheading from getting more specific, is the presence of the
anusvara as first child. The anusvara is indeed currently placed under a
“Various signs” subhead, together with the virama, nukta and others. But the
same way as the virama is placed under a dedicated “Virama” subheading in 21
scripts, even once (in Takri) followed by a “Nukta” subheading, the anusvara
is so in Grantha (where it is Vedic too, and followed by a Vedic double
anusvara).

These precedents enable to rearrange the subheadings in Bengali this way:

@		Anusvara
09FC	BENGALI LETTER VEDIC ANUSVARA
@		Punctuation
09FD	BENGALI ABBREVIATION SIGN
09FE	BENGALI SANDHI MARK
	* indicates external sandhi in Sanskrit documents

Date/Time: Mon Jul 24 20:18:36 CDT 2017
Name: Marcel Schneider
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #352: 0A76 GURMUKHI ABBREVIATION SIGN

Now as the addition of 0A76 GURMUKHI ABBREVIATION SIGN makes the list under
the subheading “Gurmukhi-specific additions” grow even longer, it might appear
as desirable to split it into a few somewhat more specific subheadings. Indeed
it is unclear why in the block of a given script, a subsection encompasses
additions that are declared to be specific to that same script, rather than
being supposed to be such and coming into the benefit of appropriate
subheadings.

One reason more to do so is the presence of a religious logogram, that should
not be buried in the middle of a miscellaneous list.

Furthermore, the on-coming presence of the abbreviation dot, which (as stated
in the proposal) is found across many Indic scripts, makes this list to be not
even “Gurmukhi-specific” any longer.

For instance, subheadings might be designed as follows:

@		Combining marks
0A70	GURMUKHI TIPPI
	* nasalization
0A71	GURMUKHI ADDAK
	* doubles following consonant
@		Letters
0A72	GURMUKHI IRI
	* base for vowels
0A73	GURMUKHI URA
	* base for vowels
@		Logogram
0A74	GURMUKHI EK ONKAR
	* God is One
@		Subjoined consonant
0A75	GURMUKHI SIGN YAKASH
	* some fonts use an alternate glyph shaped more like the lower part of 0A2F
@		Punctuation
0A76	GURMUKHI ABBREVIATION SIGN
	x (sharada abbreviation sign - 111C7)

Additional references:
http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2005/05088-gurmukhi.pdf
http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2006/06037-yakash.pdf