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CLDR Ticket #10735(closed data: fixed)

Opened 8 months ago

Last modified 6 months ago

German abbreviation for pre-noon and afternoon wrong

Reported by: nrunge@… Owned by: markus
Component: datetime Data Locale: de
Phase: dsub Review: mark
Weeks: Data Xpath:
Xref:

ticket:10789

Description

CLDR 32 changed German locale data in main/de.xml from

<dayPeriodWidth type="wide">

<dayPeriod type="am">vorm.</dayPeriod>

<dayPeriod type="pm">nachm.</dayPeriod>

to

<dayPeriodWidth type="wide">

<dayPeriod type="am">AM</dayPeriod>

<dayPeriod type="pm">PM</dayPeriod>

This is almost certainly incorrect. AM/PM are not well know abbreviations in Germany while vorm./nachm. is easily recognized.

Attachments

Change History

comment:1 Changed 8 months ago by kristi

Discussion in the v32 forum indicate possible two issues that were not resolved properly: http://st.unicode.org/cldr-apps/v#forum/de//9049

  1. "AM" and "PM" are not common data to German users.
  2. Character limit. Space should not be a constraint for wide.

comment:2 Changed 7 months ago by fredrik

Consulted with two in-house German linguists and they stick to the results from the survey tool, saying, among other things:

  1. Calling "3am" "3 Uhr vorm." is simply wrong. Same as calling "10pm" "10 Uhr nachm."
  2. The consensus was if somebody uses the 12h format they will know "AM/PM".

comment:3 Changed 7 months ago by markus

Sorry, the current data just does not make sense. This is in CLDR 32:

<dayPeriods>
   <dayPeriodContext type="format">
      <dayPeriodWidth type="abbreviated">
         <dayPeriod type="am">AM</dayPeriod>
	 <dayPeriod type="pm">PM</dayPeriod>
      </dayPeriodWidth>
      <dayPeriodWidth type="narrow">
         <dayPeriod type="am">vm.</dayPeriod>
         <dayPeriod type="pm">nm.</dayPeriod>
      </dayPeriodWidth>
      <dayPeriodWidth type="wide">
         <dayPeriod type="am">AM</dayPeriod>
	 <dayPeriod type="pm">PM</dayPeriod>
      </dayPeriodWidth>
   </dayPeriodContext>

   <dayPeriodContext type="stand-alone">
      <dayPeriodWidth type="abbreviated">
         <dayPeriod type="am">vorm.</dayPeriod>
         <dayPeriod type="pm">nachm.</dayPeriod>
      </dayPeriodWidth>
      <dayPeriodWidth type="narrow">
         <dayPeriod type="am">vorm.</dayPeriod>
	 <dayPeriod type="pm">nachm.</dayPeriod>
      </dayPeriodWidth>
      <dayPeriodWidth type="wide">
         <dayPeriod type="am">vorm.</dayPeriod>
         <dayPeriod type="pm">nachm.</dayPeriod>
      </dayPeriodWidth>
   </dayPeriodContext>
</dayPeriods>
  • In Germany, times are written in 24h format, but when software uses 12h format for some reason, the times still need to be understandable.
  • Older people won't recognize AM/PM. While vorm./nachm. are not common, because 12h format is not common, they are at least guessable.
  • Younger people have learned English in school and will recognize AM/PM, but recognize it as English intruding on a German UI.
  • It makes no sense to change format/abbreviated and format/wide to AM/PM but leave format/narrow vm./nm. and leave stand-alone unchanged.
  • If we have a hard limit on characters for type="narrow", then I could understand AM/PM for that.

If the committee insists on super short narrow forms, and wants to use AM/PM for those, then make it the following:

<dayPeriods>
   <dayPeriodContext type="format">
      <dayPeriodWidth type="abbreviated">
         <dayPeriod type="am">vorm.</dayPeriod>
	 <dayPeriod type="pm">nachm.</dayPeriod>
      </dayPeriodWidth>
      <dayPeriodWidth type="narrow">
         <dayPeriod type="am">AM</dayPeriod>
         <dayPeriod type="pm">PM</dayPeriod>
      </dayPeriodWidth>
      <dayPeriodWidth type="wide">
         <dayPeriod type="am">vorm.</dayPeriod>
	 <dayPeriod type="pm">nachm.</dayPeriod>
      </dayPeriodWidth>
   </dayPeriodContext>

   <dayPeriodContext type="stand-alone">
      <dayPeriodWidth type="abbreviated">
         <dayPeriod type="am">vorm.</dayPeriod>
         <dayPeriod type="pm">nachm.</dayPeriod>
      </dayPeriodWidth>
      <dayPeriodWidth type="narrow">
         <dayPeriod type="am">AM</dayPeriod>
	 <dayPeriod type="pm">PM</dayPeriod>
      </dayPeriodWidth>
      <dayPeriodWidth type="wide">
         <dayPeriod type="am">vorm.</dayPeriod>
         <dayPeriod type="pm">nachm.</dayPeriod>
      </dayPeriodWidth>
   </dayPeriodContext>
</dayPeriods>

comment:4 Changed 7 months ago by fredrik

Isn't the common convention for vormittag and nachmittag to illustrate something like 07:00 to noon and noon to 18:00 respectively? Wouldn't representing 23.00hrs as "11 nachm." look odd?

comment:5 Changed 7 months ago by mark

  • Cc kristi, chiara, fredrik added
  • Owner changed from anybody to markus
  • Priority changed from assess to critical
  • Status changed from new to design
  • Milestone changed from UNSCH to 33

In design, until we come to consensus.

comment:6 Changed 7 months ago by pedberg

  • Status changed from design to accepted
  • Milestone changed from 33 to 32.1

TC decision was to revert to CLDR 31 data for this (please do by Dec 1), and Markus to file new ticket to explore changing for next time,

comment:7 Changed 7 months ago by markus

  • Cc mark, pedberg, yoshito, emmons added
  • Keywords maint added
  • Status changed from accepted to reviewing
  • Review set to mark
  • Milestone changed from 32.0.1 to 33

Reverted: r13790.

Follow-up ticket:10789.

comment:8 Changed 7 months ago by pedberg

  • Milestone changed from 33 to 32.0.1

comment:9 Changed 7 months ago by fredrik

  • Xref set to 10789

comment:10 Changed 6 months ago by mark

  • Status changed from reviewing to closed
  • Resolution set to fixed
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