RE: Fwd: Re: Transcoding Tamil in the presence of markup

From: Peter Constable (petercon@microsoft.com)
Date: Mon Dec 08 2003 - 14:16:24 EST

  • Next message: Peter Kirk: "Re: Coloured diacritics (Was: Transcoding Tamil in the presence of markup)"

    > From: unicode-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:unicode-bounce@unicode.org]
    On Behalf
    > Of Mark E. Shoulson

    > I also agree, but I point out that the sufficiently perverse could
    come
    > up with some pretty tough examples. Applying color is a pretty benign
    > style, but what if I wanted a boldface circumflex on a normal letter?

    Shaping of diacritics where such styling differences (face, size or
    weight) occur is problematic to implement due to reasons related to
    design and also reasons related purely to the technologies involved:

    Diacritic positioning can be accomplished in a few different ways:

    - substitution of alternate glyphs that have metrics that result in
    different positioning of the outline, to correspond with different
    metrics of a base glyph

    - kerning rules (in this context adjust the glyph by x units
    horizontally and y units vertically)

    - attachment anchor points (adjust the glyph so that point i in the
    outline aligns with point j in the outline of the base glyph)

    Whichever approach is used in a font implementation, the implementation
    will have assumed equal point sizes (remember, the outline has no point
    size) and equal face and weight/style characteristics. If positioning by
    attachment point is used, it may be possible to produce somewhat
    tolerable results when the base and diacritic are different sizes, or
    one is (say) bold while the other is italic; but even then ideal results
    should not be expected, and might not even be clearly definable. (What's
    the correct positioning of a non-italic circumflex over an italic o?)

    Then there's the issue of the font technologies involved: whether we're
    talking about OpenType, AAT, Graphite, Pango or whatever, and no matter
    which approach to positioning described above is used, this kind of
    positioning is accomplished by rules within a given font (not typeface,
    but font) that describe how particular glyphs within that font should
    behave in relation to one another. There is absolutely no way to say
    that glyph x in font A should behave in a particular way when combined
    with glyph y in some different font B. In principle, these rules can
    still apply when there is a change in colour or point size, but as soon
    as you change between different font files (change in face or weight),
    no glyph processing is possible.

    > Or even more obnoxious, a 10-point circumflex on a an 8-point letter?
    > These could be tricky to compute.

    [then in a subsequent message]

    > (and now I contradict myself with a counterexample. In
    > http://omega.enstb.org/yannis/pdf/biblical-hebrew94.pdf, Yannis
    > Haralambous notes--correctly--that when typesetting the Hebrew Bible,
    > letters that are written small hang from the top line and have
    > normal-sized vowels below them (and the vowels are below the baseline
    of
    > the normal text))

    It might be possible to develop technologies that allowed correct
    positioning in particular cases where different sizes were involved, but
    I think we still have some more basic problems to solve, like finishing
    getting implementations that offer basic support for all of the scripts
    in Unicode 4.0.

    Peter
     
    Peter Constable
    Globalization Infrastructure and Font Technologies
    Microsoft Windows Division



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