ss and ß

From: JP Blankert (thuis & PC based) (jpblankert@zonnet.nl)
Date: Sat Oct 30 2010 - 14:31:47 CDT

  • Next message: Stephane Bortzmeyer: "Re: First posting to list: Unicode.org: unicode - punycode converter tool?"

    Nice thought...on the other hand: would it be honest to automatically
    double the worth of existing 'Straße.de' owners?

    They could sell off Strasse.de and re-start exploiting Straße.de
    (selling off: it are 2 different punycodes, difficult to forbid an owner
    to sell one of them).

    Your solution is known to me in the case of Taiwan, IDN, there they
    choose the solution: if you get the name in simplified Chinese, you get
    it in traditional Chinese as well.

    The joiners I have to study, I found
    http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Chrome/thread?tid=64832607ce9c5637&hl=en 
    <http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Chrome/thread?tid=64832607ce9c5637&hl=ent

    Above is not mentioned to trigger an ethical discussion on 'doubling the
    ownership or not', it was just a different kind of thought to your
    proposed solution, for which: thanks. Am curious how registrants will go
    about it. Nice to have found this mailing list, because otherwise I
    would have nobody to discuss this with.

    Br,

    Philippe

    On 30-10-2010 20:52, Mark Davis ☕ wrote:
    > Whether or not it was a good idea to have ß in domain names
    > (post-mapping) is moot at this point, given IDNA2008. The key will be
    > to manage the transition well. For many years, client software
    > (browsers, etc.) will be converting ß to ss in domain names. To
    > prevent serious problems, it's recommended that any registrar that
    > allows ß to do the following:
    >
    > If someone attempts to register a label with any ß, check if the
    > corresponding label with all ss's is registered.
    >
    > 1. If so, reject the registration unless the registrant is
    > precisely the same.
    > 2. If not, automatically give the registrant both labels.
    >
    > That way both new and old browsers will continue to work, and security
    > and operability problems will be avoided: (1) avoids security
    > problems, while (2) gives correct results for both new and old client
    > software.
    >
    > If client software knows that a registrar follows this policy, then it
    > can then allow ß to be unmapped for that registrar.
    >
    > The same goes each of the 4 transition characters: /ß, //ς, /and the
    > two/ joiners./
    >
    > Mark
    >
    > /— Il meglio è l’inimico del bene —/
    >
    >
    > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 04:57, "Martin J. Dürst"
    > <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp <mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>> wrote:
    >
    > On 2010/10/30 9:17, Markus Scherer wrote:
    >
    > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 3:57 PM, JP Blankert (thuis& PC based)<
    > jpblankert@zonnet.nl <mailto:jpblankert@zonnet.nl>> wrote:
    >
    > Dear unicode.org <http://unicode.org> interested,
    >
    > I discovered at least 1 flaw in the converter tools I used
    > so far (as
    > Verisign's IDN to punycode converter): none of the ones I
    > checkes recognises
    > the German character
    >
    > ß
    >
    > (the sz, as from 'Straße' )
    >
    > correctly, the sign is always dissolved in ss.
    >
    >
    > This is standard IDNA2003 behavior.
    >
    >
    > Yes.
    >
    > It is usually desirable
    >
    >
    > It is desirable in searching, but it wasn't desirable in domain
    > names. The reason it got into IDNA2003 is because the IETF was
    > looking for data to do case mapping beyond ASCII, and the data
    > available from the Unicode consortium included the 'ß' -> ss
    > mapping, and the IETF didn't want to change it because they feared
    > that might start all kinds of discussions on all kinds of
    > (essentially unrelated) issues.
    >
    >
    > because a) many
    > German speakers are unsure about when exactly to use ß vs. ss,
    >
    >
    > Yes, but for many names, it's either one or the other.
    > Essentially, no rules.
    >
    >
    > b) the
    > spelling reform a few years ago changed the rules,
    >
    >
    > Yes. They got way easier and more straightforward.
    >
    >
    > and c) Switzerland does
    > not use ß at all in German.
    >
    >
    > Yes. But that's no reason to take it away from those who use it.
    > (at least myself being Swiss I don't think so)
    >
    >
    > This means that for most purposes it is
    > counter-productive (and can be a security risk) to distinguish
    > ß and ss.
    >
    >
    > Well, it can be a security risk to distinguish between 'i' and 'l'
    > and '1', and so on, and nevertheless, it's being done for good
    > reasons all the time.
    >
    >
    > IDNA2008, an incompatible update, by itself does not map
    > characters.
    >
    >
    > What's more important, IDNA2008 allows the 'ß' as is.
    >
    >
    > UTS #46
    > provides a compatibility bridge for both IDNA2003 and
    > IDNA2008, and the ß
    > behavior is an option there.
    >
    >
    > Yes. The basic idea in TR #46 is that in a first phase, 'ß' is
    > mapped to 'ss' for lookup, to give registries with German clients
    > a chance to their clients to register true 'ß' where necessary.
    > After that, the mapping can be dropped, so as in the (somewhat
    > distant) future to allow for cases where a name with 'ß' and a
    > name with 'ss' are resolved differently.
    >
    > Regards, Martin.
    >
    >
    > --
    > #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
    > #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp
    > <mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Geen virus gevonden in het binnenkomende-bericht.
    > Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com
    > Versie: 9.0.864 / Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/3227 - datum van uitgifte: 10/30/10 08:34:00
    >



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